Is engine removal as bad as it looks?

[TeenerTim]

Here's the scenario. The front and bottom of the engine in my $500 project car is covered in oil. It's all over the suspension and exhaust too. The odometer shows 217k and I have no records of what's been done and I haven't started it yet. At a minimum I know I need to replace the timing belt, rollers, water pump, and seals.

I also just bought another 2.5 NA engine from an '86 that had 110k miles on it for less than $200. I'm certain replacing the belts and seals will be much easier on an engine out of the car than in the car but swapping the engine itself looks like a major PITA! I've done lots of engine swaps in the past but looking at the steps required for the 944 makes me queasy.

So the question is fix the stuff on the engine in the car or do the same fixes on the other engine and do a swap? I don't have the money right now to do a complete rebuild on the new engine and I would like to get this car on the road as soon as possible.

Thoughts? Recommendations?

[many944s]

A full front end service on an engine still in the car is certainly easier than pulling the engine out! Pulling an engine on these has a definite learning curve. If you have the proper tools (flywheel lock, spanner wrench, thin adjusting wrench) I think you would be alot better off doing your belts & seals with the engine in the car.

Just my .02
-Nick

[JRMock]

With engine in car:
Remove radiator and fans, easier access to front of engine.
Remove intake and exhaust manifold, if you need to replace o-ring in rear of balance shaft housings. (with 200+k these are probably a major contributor to oil leaks.) While intake is out, replace o-rings for Oil Seperator (oil filler tube).
If the oil pan is leaking, you will have to support the engine from above, and remove lower cross member. (front end alignment required after you finish)

If you remove engine:
First remove Transaxle (this alone may color your decision to work on the one in the car)
While its fairly easy to pull the torque tube back to dis-engage from engine when removing, it can be very frustrating to line it back up when you re-install.
Again, you will need to remove radiator and fans, and if going out the bottom, remove lower cross member. (remember front end alignment)

I would.... start repairs with the engine in place. If you see that more is required, then you can proceed to remove the engine.

good luck
JM

[krystar]

for the job yer thinking about, it is definitely easier to just keep it in the car.


with that said, i just finished a mild engine overhaul with engine out of the car. there are alot of steps...but i don't think it's technically challenging. I have never dropped an engine on any car. i've done alot of wrench turning but have never done anything to the extent of dropping an engine.

most of it will just consist of being able to turn a ratchet/wrench and following directions. u'll also need hoist and engine stand, couple of 2x4's for leverage and at least 1 other helper at the critical step. make sure u have a box of ziploc baggies and labels. keep yer bolts and brackets organized so u know which ones go where. also remember to label your electrical connectors so u can reconnect them later.

problem is...once the engine is out, u really should take the time and do everything else. that's when small project turns into big project and down the slippery slope u go. and if the engine is out, it's perfect time to do a clutch job....see what i mean about slippery slope.

[Dean924s]

I don't have to remove the trans axle to get the motor out. Just remove the rad and there is room.

Just a front end service don't remove. If the clutch is involved WITH a front end service = remove the motor. BTW removing the motor is really not that big a deal it is putting it back/dealing with all the broken bolts studs etc that gets to be a pain (exhaust header flange especially) With the motor out there are a host of other While you were there things that you really should considder. that could be an entire thread on its own.

[flashgordon13]

I would suggest replacing the seals and belts in your spare engine as well as rod bearings then swap engines. It looks much harder than it actually is. The whole proccess reads like a nightmare but once you start, it goes pretty easy. Since you have done engine swaps in the past, this job should not cause you too much trouble. I swapped the engine by myself in one weekend but the job would be much easier with a helper. The effort would be worth the piece of mind in knowing that the engine is sound and reliable.

[JonA]

The determining factor should be whether you need a clutch. If you need the clutch or are close to needing one, pull the engine, do the swap and do everything else. It is not hard, just a lot of steps. Of course you just spent a bucket of money but it will be well spent.

Jon

[Zero10]

clutch, oil pan, front end, hell, drop the engine.
It takes about 5 hours to have it out of the car and another 5-10 to put it back in. Beats trying to do the oil pan gasket in place and you have a way better chance of it not leaking if you can see what you are doing (Read: changing it with the engine out of the car). The time difference between doing the work with the engine in vs out is negligible, and the frustration factor is far lower.

The secret to dropping the engine quickly is to drop the front suspension with it. Undo the 4 nuts on the strut tower, hang the brake calipers from above (unbolt from spindles), drop rear control arm mounts, unhook rad hoses and remove rad. Remove the bolt in the intermediate shaft and separate it, pull the DME wiring through the firewall (sounds hard, but really isn't), and un-do the power steering lines. If your A/C is in good working order then hang the compressor to the side, otherwise just remove the lines on it so you can drop it with the engine. Pull the battery wiring off and remove the distributor cap.

You'll have to do so much of this to change the oil pan gasket and water pump that you might as well just drop the engine. Plus, you can count on both engines needing a clutch. Given the miles on them you'd be crazy not to change it while you have the chance.

*EDIT*
Your car is an 87, this means it has an oil level sensor in the oil pan. Your spare engine is an 86, this means it does not. This means it has a different connector on the car side for the engine harness. Your car will have a black 8-pin connector by the DME plug, the 86 engine will have a red 4-pin connector. Best bet is to swap the oil pan and wiring harness onto your 86 motor, but plan B is to ground the white/yellow wire in the 8-pin connector on the car side, then make up some jumpers from the red 4-pin to the black 8-pin, this way your MPG gauge and tach will work properly.

[Schumi]

I won't comment on ease of removal as this is relative to your mechanical aptitude, but I had never done an engine removal on a 944 before, but after the engine was stripped on most of it's accessories, a friend and I dropped the motor in about 1.5 hours, including a few rounds of musical jackstands and several hoist up / hoist down deals with the car.

I had spent the two weeks prior each weekend spening a few hours each time (about 8 hours total) taking off misc items to ease the process like all intake items, clutch slave, starter, front suspension, etc. to the point where I had the crossmember bolts and the 4 torque tube bolts to remove. From there it took us about an hour and a half.

Getting it back in has yet to occur. But it came out just as easy as a few front engined volkswagens I have worked on, once you're comfortable about the fact it comes out the bottom and not the top.

Oh and another note- we tried the out the top routine. I ended up busting my distributor rotor as we were trying to tilt it up and out. Not ever trying that again.

[blown 944]

IM it is very easy especially on NA.

I prefer to leave the suspension and just drop with the cross member. It eliminates the need for a new alignment and brake bleeding.

You just have to separate the tie rod ends with a fork and remove the steering bolt and nut.

What do I know though I'll drop the engine to change the clutch myself even on a 951.

PS: if it is the just balance shaft orings that are leaking (more than likely) and you don't want to do all the work just clean very well and silicone them really good. It seals them fine for years.

[Dean924s]

(This is for a NA not a 951)

I have been removing the motors in these cars from the top for as long as I can remember. It makes things so much simpler. I should qualify this by saying that I do have a engine hoist. After having dropped my first motor out the bottom and getting irritated at all the stuff you have to do with the cross member and the ft suspension tried putting it back in from the top. Finding that it went in very easy that way I have been pulling them that way now for as long as I can remember. The key is to drop the motor in an angle (on the horizontal axis) Have the crank pointing at the passenger side rear wheel (left rear). Lower it in so it is below the upper rad support and pull it as far forward as far as you can and then spin it back to the center to align the impeller shaft with the bellhousing. Slide in place and bolt it up. Then all you have to deal with is the motor mounts, wiring and hoses. Not to bad and definitely easier than dealing with all the suspension bits. I can get a motor out in 2 hours or less. Back in and running in less than 3 this way.

A 951 is taking it to the next step of complexity.

Ohya it goes with out saying that the air box has to be removed with the AFM along with the rad.

[Slam]

^+1.

I'm nowhere near as fast, but when I did go out the top it was much easier than I anticipated. I did take out the rad to get some more room.

[TeenerTim]

Thanks for all the comments. My skills really aren't an issue. I used to be an ASE certified mechanic and have had a 911 and three 914s. However, since I turned 50, the amount of effort something takes plays a bigger role in my decisions. Not having my own garage plays a part too but I don't want to make foolish choices based on convenience.

I think I will do this in phases. The first phase is to replace the broken A/C brackets so I can put the alternator belt back on. Then get a used #4 spark plug wire and start this thing up. Then I can drive it and see how the clutch acts and what works and doesn't. I'll run some compression checks and see if it smokes. The extra engine is said to need a new head gasket so I'll pull the front off of that engine as practice and pull the head to check the cylinders.

If the engine in the car runs pretty well, doesn't smoke, and the clutch is OK I'll do an in-car fix of the belts and seals. I'll then rebuild the extra engine as time and money permits. If either the clutch or the engine in the car are bad I'll find a friend's garage and do the swap.

[Zero10]

Said to need a new head gasket? Unless it overheated badly or is burning coolant they are wrong, its oil cooler seals.
People who don't know 944's mis-diagnose coolant/oil mixing as head gasket failure when it is really the oil cooler