Value of my '71S

[Kevins911]

I am thinking of selling my '71S as a roller, or possibly with my 2.7 RS spec engine with Webber's and 901/13 trans. Originally imported to Switzerland, then brought over to Canada.

-VIN #9111301094
-Paint Code 97-6809-G Blood Orange (Tangerine)
-Clear title
-Original engine and trans are gone
-H1's
-7&8" X 15" Fuchs
-Original oil console is there, with lines to front, trombone cooler
-Standard early seats, one split in drivers seat
-S calipers, Koni struts, 21mm torsion bars up front
-TRG inverted coil overs in the rear
-Fiberglass duck tail
-Paint is a 20 footer
-All fender lips have been cut off
-Outer rockers seem solid
-Floors are solid
-Front pan needs replacement
-RS style front bumper
-Was hit at one point on right front side, poor repair, fender sits a little funny. Never had any problems with alignment
-Original aluminum rear license plate panel

Any opinions on value? As a roller? Complete with RS engine?

Thanks
Kevin






Poor repair job

[Macroni]

First, I would run this by the S Registry crowd. They are the experts.

Wow, this is a tough one to call as it has many great features which by themselves seem to have greater value than the whole. Recently, a non-matching but vintage correct 1970 S sold in 1 day for $49,000. So as a stock S it would be very desirable.

The RS spec motor in itself has strong value depending upon build and condition this alone can be worth $10 to $12,000. I've seen them sell higher.

The S tub / chassis has value but it needs what you described as extensive restoration. It nonetheless could easily be worth $10,000 to $15,000.

Then there are your goodies, the 15" wheels, H1s, aluminum rear license panel, Let's say another $5000 to $7000. Then the balance of parts which are scarce another $5000 to $7000.

That gives us a value bottom of $30,000 and a top of $41,000.

If I could get towards the top end of this valuation I would sell whole. If I couldn't I would part.

[silverc4s]

Subscribed. I'll be back later with comment.

[Kevins911]

Hi Luke,
I had a friend post this over at the S registry yesterday. I am more inclined to sell the car as a roller, I don't believe the engine would add $10,000 of value to the car. Plus I like that engine and it wouldn't break my heart to have to keep it Everyone that has expressed interest in the car wanted it as a roller, that is understandable, because the car with a 2.2S MFI engine would be worth much more than with the RS spec engine. You value the car at $20,000 on the low end for a roller. That would be nice I'd like to see what other people have in mind for a value.

Thanks
Kevin

[silverc4s]

As a roller, it depends on completeness, options, accident repairs, and rust. A perfect 70-71 S Coupe non-sunroof roller, with all trim intact and usable, ready to paint is probably a 20 to 30K car depending on options and other equipment.
Yours has no sport seats, original Fuchs are gone, deck lid is gone, and could have a lot of repair time before going into a paint shop.

I would say $15K or so, depending on the cost estimated for body repairs / replacement parts. It would be very easy to sink $ into a car like this in $10K chunks these days. Engine, Trans, MFI, Interior, repairs, wheels, suspension, paint, etc....

Just my opinion

[Kevins911]

Hi Bill,
Thanks for the input, that is kind of what I was thinking. $15k is kind of what I had in mind for a roller. Crazy thought, what if I was able to track down the original engine? I'm gonna make some phone calls

Thanks
Kevin

[boba]

Kevin,

We were having this conversation at our Cars and Coffee this weekend.

Without the original drivetrain is an S or E tub any more valuable than a T. It seemed to have alot to do with value of bare tub vs. roller and how complete. The more complete and more valuable. The better bits on the roller the greater the value. The thinking was that the vin was less important S, E, or T unless you had access to either the correct type motor or the correct # matching drivetrain.

If you could come up with the original drivetrain, BINGO.

Otherwise it is a tub with damage and rust repair needed + some nice bits.

With the 2.7 it is a nice hot rod package which could be more appealing to a larger market.

[Kevins911]

Originally Posted by boba

Kevin,

We were having this conversation at our Cars and Coffee this weekend.

Without the original drivetrain is an S or E tub any more valuable than a T. It seemed to have alot to do with value of bare tub vs. roller and how complete. The more complete and more valuable. The better bits on the roller the greater the value. The thinking was that the vin was less important S, E, or T unless you had access to either the correct type motor or the correct # matching drivetrain.

If you could come up with the original drivetrain, BINGO.

Otherwise it is a tub with damage and rust repair needed + some nice bits.

With the 2.7 it is a nice hot rod package which could be more appealing to a larger market.

But on the other hand if you take a T tub and build it to S spec it still wont be worth as much as a true S tub that has been built up. I still believe that even as a bare tub an S will demand a premium over a T. I have yet to see a stock 911T driver sell for $65k

[silverc4s]

Kevin,
I understand how you feel. It is an S and S's are worth more than T's and even E's. So an S roller should be worth more than an T or E. Well, it's a subtractive kind of problem. Every 911S has a certain "Sness" to it AND it has a documented S serial number and a matching engine & transmission with their (usually) documented serial numbers.

The serial number is worth a certain amount, and each bit of "Sness" has a value too. Someone earlier today had a pair of sport seats pegged upwards of $5000. Aluminum rear decklid if you can find one, $1500+, 6" deep Fuchs, S body trim, S front spoiler in metal, S instruments, S brakes, S suspension, etc, all have a value and a replacement cost.

So, if a good driver S is worth $65K (and I am not sure that day is here as yet) then an S roller tub is worth $65K minus the cost of all missing "Sness", minus the cost of any major body restoration work, minus the cost of paint to a driver grade, minus any interior work, and so on. IMO, until these cars are as rare as say 356 Speedsters, they will not be bought as potential S drivers unless they are pretty damn close to actually becoming an S driver.

As to your other question: YES, the cardex MFI engine is a HUGE part of the car's "Sness", right. Even failing the actual engine, a correct but different serial # 2.2 S MFI engine should bring more as part of this package, just like the 911 box with the proper gearset would. Whether you could obtain them in a cost effective way is unknown though, right?

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by silverc4s

Kevin,

So, if a good driver S is worth $65K (and I am not sure that day is here as yet) then an S roller tub is worth $65K minus the cost of all missing "Sness", minus the cost of any major body restoration work, minus the cost of paint to a driver grade, minus any interior work, and so on.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=390242

I agree with this assessment. Kevin's car does have quite a bit of "Sness" but it also needs quite a bit of work and the proper drive train. Then it has the potential to be a $49,000 car.
http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18986

[Kevins911]

Here's your $65k driver http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-911-911S-911-S-911S-Sunroof-coupe-RS-RSR-911s-911rs_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ10156QQihZ007QQit emZ170187482081QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

My car has the S brakes, S suspension, S guages, I have front and rear S trim, whats missing from mine is the rocker trim, aluminum deck lid, deep 6's, and sport seats. There was no S spoiler in '71, I think that was only '73, and of course the engine.

[boba]

This is the point of our conversation, "Sness" is the motor.

You could build an S out of an S vin tub with all the correct parts, but even if you had all the parts you cannot build an S out of a T or E tub. Now the question is haw much is that worth? I do not know.

As far as the tub is concerned, a 1,2,or 3 vin, the tubs are the same. The precived value difference is in the potential for the final build.

An RS clone will never be worth close to the real deal. The value is in the documentation and history. You can use real RS parts build the motor with a replacement case but it can never be an RS. Even RS's which have lost their original motor and have documentation for the repalcement case suffer in the market. Questions are raised as was the case with the Ottis Chandler RS.

As the sales price of ESSES continue to climb the scrutiny will be more intense.

This said, if you could find the original drivertain that would be the most valuable path.

As a tub or roller the S vin may have value to the end buyer but it may not depending on the intended use. The same can be said for a hot rods built on an S or E base.

[budge96]

Kevin,somehow one of my earlier posts didn't make the cut but I believe I echo silverC4S and
Boba's comments..
Without original or like series engine a considerable value is reduced herein,with not knowing\extent but approximate damage front right fender and pan rust ,again..big minus.
Non original color change,additional 5-10K hit,and that doesn't begin to discuss lack of correct body panels ,quarters,engine lid and front and rear bumpers.
Also missing interior pieces or obtaining those to return to original spec is another huge expense
If you were to sell off the desireable goodies per se and remove "RS' spec eng your talking about
an 'S' tub and suspension at around 10-12.5 K
find the original engine and it goes up by 10K maybe,thanks Bert

[boba]

Kevin,

As I re-read the modifications on your car my opinion, and it is only my opinion, your car is more interesting with the 2.7, and would have wider appeal if sold that way.

[silverc4s]

After rereading this: Here may be the real question..

Can an early S that is missing it's original powertrain ever be restored in a way that is equal to an S that has matching serial numbers?

Obviously here, the answer is no.

So then the question becomes, how different is the valuation with a correct but not original powertrain?

With a close-but-no-cigar powertrain (2.7 mag cases, 2.4 E with Webers/PMOs, etc)?

Then you can know the top number that can be "subtracted from" to get your valuation, asking price.

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by silverc4s

After rereading this: Here may be the real question..

Can an early S that is missing it's original powertrain ever be restored in a way that is equal to an S that has matching serial numbers?

Obviously here, the answer is no.

So then the question becomes, how different is the valuation with a correct but not original powertrain?

With a close-but-no-cigar powertrain (2.7 mag cases, 2.4 E with Webers/PMOs, etc)?

Then you can know the top number that can be "subtracted from" to get your valuation, asking price.

Bill,
Why do the two attached threads not answer your question?
The non-correct car sold for $49,000. This is not the only example. Another was sold on the west coast within the last 3 months for close to $60,000. I have attached another thread.
http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17976

Luke

[boba]

Luke,

Your correct they do sell for that from time to time. I know that car and the owner and I can tell you that car has been for sale for over a year and that the history and documentation on that car was well known. Again the car speaks for itself and this one is very nice.

The fact that a very nice well documented car gets a preimum price when sold to the right buyer does not make the market, any more than a total rust bucket matching numbers S sold by an ill-informed seller for $2000 makes the market.

The car in question is not at either end of the market.

If your point is some cars sell for a premium and all should be given the same premium, that will not happen.

Each car will stand on its own merits and IMHO this one has some issues.

The hard to find part can always be sold at a premium, but you can not add up the value of rare parts and then say this is the price of the car. If you pull the sport seats and replace with comfort seats the price does not drop $5,000.

Many know that you very often only get back $.50 on the $ when finished with a restoration, so you better be doing it for yourself because it is a lousy investment.

[silverc4s]

Originally Posted by Luke Marano Jr

Bill,
Why do the two attached threads not answer your question?
The non-correct car sold for $49,000. This is not the only example. Another was sold on the west coast within the last 3 months for close to $60,000. I have attached another thread.
http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17976

Luke

Luke,
I agree with Boba's reply as well.

Let me state it in another way. It would be impossible to take this tub and bring it up to the equivalent of either of the cars you are referencing here. They are both original paint, with some small areas re-touched, never rusty, original, with documents, one of them even has a correct 901/02 replacement engine AND the original ser# block with it, etc. etc.

Keep in mind the car in this thread has had metal trimmed from all wheel wells, been hit in the front, the power train is missing, it is a non sunroof, and so on.

If you can't see the difference, you may need to look at each car in real life then decide.
I'd make a swag that you could easily spend $100K bringing this car up to the level you are looking at in these two S's, then you'd be upside down by $50K or more. Not a pleasant experience.

[Macroni]

I believe I said this tub was worth $10 to $15,000.

I also maintain that the components off these early cars are very valuable and that is how the pricing should be set.

With that said I understand your view points as I am finding my self upside down in a car I am building.

[Kevins911]

Thanks for your opinions guys, I don't expect to get $20,000 for the roller, but I'm also not going to give it away. There are a lot of valuable parts, S and non S, on the car, the non S parts can be sold to offset the cost of buying original parts. I talked to the guy that I bought it from 5 years ago, he figures the original engine is in Switzerland, he also gave me the name of the person he bought it from. I found his phone number, so I will be giving him a call tomorrow. So, $10-15,000 as it sits as a roller, what if I find the original engine? You also have to consider that these cars are only going up in value, if your not interested in flipping it then the value is there. Nobody would be buying this car to restore and sell to make a profit, anyone with any business sense knows theres no money in that, so why even bring it up Now, charging by the hour to restore somebody else's car, thats a different story. I would like to believe that the person buying my car is an enthusiast and would want to bring it back to it's original glory, for their own satisfaction. Thats what I would do if I had the time. Not everyone out there is a flipper.

Kevin