964 Carrera Cup Value (US)

JN912 · 03-08-2016, 01:26 PM

I have a close friend looking to sell a lightly used (i.e. never raced) 964 Carrera Cup car. As values have changed quite a bit recently I thought this forum would be a good outlet to get an opinion on pricing such a unique vehicle which seldom comes to market. The vehicle is all original, down to the livery, and has low miles 20-30k. Obviously, it's white, though I have heard a red one exists. This vehicle currently is in race trim, but I believe he has parts to convert it back to street trim including a set of plastic wrapped and never used black sport seats I've been trying to pry out of his fingers for years. Would it be worth it to convert it back to a street car for the sale? Appreciate any advice! Thanks!

Matt Monson · 03-08-2016, 02:14 PM

What has he got for records? Thats the big question. Things like who converted it back to race trim? When did it happen?

About a decade ago I was involved in the sale of the only US 964 Cup that ever did not get reconverted to street trim. Documenting it was tedious. By the time Dr Bill Jackson bought the car from the widow we were convinced that contrary to all internet stories that Carlsen and Andial had complicity agreed to never take it back. And all the street parts were still new and clearly barely installed. Dr Jackson sold the car when he liquidated most of his collection and it is still here in Colorado.

A number of them want back to race cars using reinstallation of many of the Andial parts. But how it was re-converted, using what parts, and what original parts are still available would impact the value substantially.

JN912 · 03-08-2016, 02:55 PM

It was converted by Andial, he has multiple binders of records on the vehicle. Very meticulous owner.

comintern · 04:31 PM

cup cars worth big $$. Sell before the market realizes the full extent of the oncoming dip, imo. Although as a 964 fan, I'm rooting for 964 pricing power.

And why do you say it has 30k miles, is in race trim currently but never raced? So it was re-converted to race trim for the upcoming sale?
Or does it have 30k track miles?

Matt, you were involved in a sale of a street trim cup car that was secretly not converted back to street trim through some complicit shenanigans but was street trim at the time of sale 10 years ago, even though Andial didn't re-convert it?

Caveat Emptor

Matt Monson · 05:36 PM

I think there may be some confusion of what these cars were. They were street cars brought over for the USA 964 Cup one makes race. Andial was shipped the cars and race parts to convert to Cups. They were not built at Weissach. They were born as street cars with street car vins.

When the series was cancelled every car was allegedly sent back to Andial to have all the race parts removed. And then street parts reinstalled and sent out to various dealers for sale as street cars. A couple of the cars never actually got converted by Andial. Everyone we spoke to officially insisted that every single car went back to street trim, even this car.

The original owner died. His wife left it in his garage for half a dozen years with fewer than 3000 mi on it. Her memory, and everything she showed us, and super close inspection, led us to believe her version of the facts were accurate. We believed the car had never been returned to street trim. We told the story openly and honestly and let prospective buyers decide what they thought was true. We had no legal or binding authority to certify their claims. But we did our homework and shared what we found. Andial and Carlsen had no official comment and my inclination that they had some quiet agreement regarding this is no more than personal opinion.

comintern · 03-08-2016, 06:33 PM

If I could have only one weekend car, the US 964 cup or the 964 turbo S2 would be it.
964 rs, 5.0 cobra, 360 Ferrari, e34 m5, and some recent Aston round out the wish list!

pu911 · 03-08-2016, 06:39 PM

I own #6, which was sold to Kelly Moss Racing and re-converted by Andial to race and to ran a few IMSA events. I think the US Carrera Cups are probably the most misunderstood Porsche ever built.

45 were imported - the cars had street VIN's but in reality were 964 RS Touring with equipment added to make car US legal. 29 Cars shipped to Andial, 25 were converted to full race trim (964 Cup), 4 were partially converted and considered parts cars, the remaining 16 were called port cars and never converted. The 25 supposedly were converted back to street trim by Andial and sent to Charleston to final cosmetic tweaks before being sold at Porsche Dealers as a 964 Carrera Cup Edition.
So on to to your question about valuation- last one I saw listed for sale was for $400k. There have been many discussions over the years what was worth more - a street trim or race trim cup. Most of the street trim cars were later converted to race trim by various shops along with a few by Andial. I personally think the Andial are worth more than the cars converted at other shop and worth more than the street version but that is my opinion- I won't pretend to be objective. Anyways these are really terrific cars, have an amazing story and only a handful built, sohoul dbe worth a lot of $$$ now and even more in future.

Phil

Dan J · 03-09-2016, 05:39 AM

I'm curious about this as well. I have one coming for sale soon with 950 miles
Obviously as perfect as it gets. Where is the money on these? More then a cup?
Euro RS's which is what these are essentially are all over between 250 and 400 asking

Matt Monson · 03-09-2016, 06:10 AM

I made a few inquiries with some 964 Cup owning friends over night. Their answers were pretty consistent with ,"I dunno." So few of them sell abd when they do not always publicly. As mentioned it's not really the same as a factory cup, so is it worth more or less because it's weird and unique. I think $1/4m is probably a decent baseline but an individual with the right story could be worth up to twice that. If I had one to sell it is probably one of the few cars I would consider taking to auction house

pu911 · 03-09-2016, 06:25 AM

I'm not sure how one would put a value on these, I haven't seen a public sale in years - you are trading provenance and history for a car that is more rare, hasn't been beat to death, can a very unique story and can be licensed for street use. Up to the person writing the check what that is worth. Seems like $250k is reasonable entry point for driver quality car- for a pristine low miles car, I'll agree with Matt I'd probably take it to an auction or two.

Phil

JN912 · 03-09-2016, 09:12 AM

Thanks for all the input! Very much appreciated!

Matt Monson · 03-09-2016, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pu911

I'm not sure how one would put a value on these, I haven't seen a public sale in years - you are trading provenance and history for a car that is more rare, hasn't been beat to death, can a very unique story and can be licensed for street use. Up to the person writing the check what that is worth. Seems like $250k is reasonable entry point for driver quality car- for a pristine low miles car, I'll agree with Matt I'd probably take it to an auction or two.

Phil

You really highlight the joker card here. The car is basically what an RSA should have been but wasn't. For some people, that street registerable vin might be worth 6 figures or more, on top of an RSA. To add to the mix, 964 RS cars are now getting old enough to bring into the States and street drive when one previously couldn't do that. They have already found their way to Canada.

And then there is racing provenance and the entry into vintage events a certain vin could provide. PCA is currently looking to make a registry for these cars and publish it in 2017. Other buyers might want this car for a racecar from the series that never happened.

It's really hard to say what rich guys will do with their money on something weird and unique. The car I mentioned last night is parked in a collection. The same owner has a Euro 964 Cup that he races. Which one does he consider more valuable?

pu911 · 03-09-2016, 03:06 PM

I think the Euro Vs US car comparison is appropriate here- the Europeans tend to drive there cars as they were intended to be driven come hell or high water. We tend put ours under covers and drive them on nice weekends. Most 964 RS have driven a lot which is wonderful- I think you'd be hard pressed to find a high mileage US CC, I know of one or two with more than 30k miles. There are quite a few with very low miles. I for one stopped racing mine 7-8 years ago as value had increased significantly, that a shame really. It's a terrific race car.

Phil

Matt Monson · 03-09-2016, 03:47 PM

Since this morning I've heard about 2 more of these from owners. One with low mile recently bought and another with a bunch of pca track history. Neither owner had been previously thinking about selling but both are reading this...

CountD · 03-09-2016, 04:44 PM

Wow, I really am ignorant about the 964 marketplace as I had no idea they were going for this much and are that valuable.

Honestly I never thought the RSA was a special car (especially when ordered with a sunroof, ac, and the rest). And I don't know why they are getting the money they are. But these are different. And I never really thought the 964 was that great, but these sound like they are - by far - the cream of the crop of the dark early 1990's Porsche years. And very rare as well.

dougm36 · dougm36's Garage

Dave Cottrell sold his concours parade winning cup early in 2015. It was immediately flipped a couple times and ended up at RPM for ~375K in May 2015.

http://shn.pca.org/images/RPM14atb.jpg

pu911 · 03-09-2016, 05:26 PM

I believe Dave's car was the one Cole built. Street version converted into race version.

Phil

whiterabbit · 03-09-2016, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

You really highlight the joker card here. The car is basically what an RSA should have been but wasn't. For some people, that street registerable vin might be worth 6 figures or more, on top of an RSA. To add to the mix, 964 RS cars are now getting old enough to bring into the States and street drive when one previously couldn't do that. They have already found their way to Canada.

And then there is racing provenance and the entry into vintage events a certain vin could provide. PCA is currently looking to make a registry for these cars and publish it in 2017. Other buyers might want this car for a racecar from the series that never happened.

It's really hard to say what rich guys will do with their money on something weird and unique. The car I mentioned last night is parked in a collection. The same owner has a Euro 964 Cup that he races. Which one does he consider more valuable?

Matt I am not an expert here but I thought the 964RS had things like aluminum doors, lid and thinner glass which neither the RSA or Andial converted CC's did. This should make a Euro 964RS the most desirable model based on spec and VIN.

pu911 · 03-09-2016, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whiterabbit

Matt I am not an expert here but I thought the 964RS had things like aluminum doors, lid and thinner glass which neither the RSA or Andial converted CC's did. This should make a Euro 964RS the most desirable model based on spec and VIN.

The 964 RS had an aluminum hood but steel doors, the 964's that were imported for CC conversion were the same spec as a 964 RS basic except for US mandated safety equipment
1. Airbags
2. CHMSL
3.US spec bumpers
4.Rear pkg tray
5.standard seats
6. Door beams
7.Alarm and central locking system
8.77 L gas tank
9. Electric windows
10. Aluminum wheels instead of Mg

Once converted- these are very close if not identical in specification to a 964 Cup with the exception that the car is titled and can be registered for street use.

Phil

Chris Tallon · 07:18 PM

The US Cup car and the European 964 RS are the same car other than the safety equipment mandated by US DOT, like door beams, air bags yada yada. They are nothing like the RSA or US C2's. Much lighter, way more raw and amazing. I've driven both a US Cup that had not been converted and a Euro RS and both felt the same. I owned two RSA's and although they were great cars in their own right, they were no where near as amazing as the RS or US Cup. Simply brilliant cars!

As good as these 964 specials are, the 996 GT3 is just that much better....and you can have them at bargain prices, right now.....but I digress