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A fellow Pelacanite
 
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I have been planning my turbo 3.2 for about 6 months and the first stage is going to be very simple and cheap, about $3500. I'm only starting off with .5bar with the following parts.

• 930 J-pipe (sourced for $150US and bolts straight onto Existing heat exchangers)
• 930 Muffler ($250US 2nd hand)
• Garrett Gt30R Turbo and oil plumbing ($1400US)
• Protomotive Turbo Chip and Fuel Pressure Regulator ($700US)
• Charge pipe Fabricated (about $300)
• Tial Wastegate ($500)
• Blow off Valve ($200)
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 11-10-2007, 06:32 PM
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one of the great unwashed
 
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Ben and Jerry can speak from experience on this regarding the 3.2 turbo. Mine is a bit different as it is a CIS SC, and the route I took is basically antique technology (period correct !!) I would imagine a 3.2 would be an easier go simply because of the fuel delivery options with an electronic system. Fuel delivery is the key to a turbo conversion. My first go at it, I couldn't get enough fuel enrichment. I have enough now, but that was worth $1000 to get it right.

I also know exactly how much power is made, as mine has been on a dyno. I haven't seen anyone else's N/A to turbo conversion dyno sheets, so I have no basis for comparison. I do know that I was making 251 RWHP at essentially 6 PSI, and that was still not sorted as well as it can be, and I make power all the way to redline. I think I have at least another 20-30 HP lying on the table. I have heard of dyno results from a 3.2 with a full Promotive install, custom intercooler...whatever Stage Something Promotive calls it. The car is making 300 RWHP, but it cost $10 large to do it (on an existing engine). If you just want to kick up the power a bit, you can likely do it for maybe $3k or so, if you're handy.

Pat
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Old 11-10-2007, 06:58 PM
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Sounds great Pat, please post some pic of your install.

I dont understand what that means Nathan?!!
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Old 11-10-2007, 07:16 PM
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FWIW, as a point of reference regarding "to much" boost, the kid across the street makes 780 RWHP at 28 PSI boost on his Acura...that's where his clutch slips. He is capable of 42 PSI. I hope the shrapnel doesn't hit our house.
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78 SC
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RIP, Early_S_Man & RoninLB
Old 11-10-2007, 07:51 PM
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Guys, please correct me if I am wrong about any of this.

Spence,
The stock 930 has 7:1CR the 911 3.2 has 9:1 or maybe more.
The stock 930 boosts at .7bar you are saying you will run to .5bar.
The stock 930 has an IC you are not going to fit one.
The stock 930 has the ignition timing setup for a boosted engine, you don't mention the ECU getting fed any boost signal so it can adjust timing. The ECU does have CHT which may help but I don't actually know that it does.

Patkeefe's use of 6psi sounds much more sensible to me than your 0.5bar. 6psi = 4.14bar.

Protomotive do seem to be a good company though and that is why I told you about them at the start of this thread.
Are they saying you can run just those parts you listed at 0.5bar on pump gas?

Don't want you to blow your engine up.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg

Last edited by NathanUK; 11-11-2007 at 01:38 AM..
Old 11-11-2007, 01:35 AM
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Pat, did you see a sheet somewhere? I ask because proto advertises 360 on a 3.2 stage one @.5 bar. And 400 intercooled @ .7 bar
Old 11-11-2007, 05:50 AM
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Just get one of those Going super fast intercoolers and call it a day. They are cheap and verrrry efficiant. I 100% think you should run an I/C, between your compression, intake ports, induction system, and boost- you are going to make too much cylinder pressure not to have it cooled.
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Old 11-11-2007, 08:10 AM
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Deja vu, had this conversation somewhere else...

The numbers seem a little high for the boost to me, even given that EFI makes better power than CIS, but WydRyd would know, I guess, as he did it. Ben and Jerry (heh, that's unfortunate) must have a lot of knowledge here too.

I always wondered how much Promotive geared their kits towards RoW - as opposed to US - spec cars.

Aren't the RoW 3.2's 10.3:1 instead of 9.5:1? These C/R numbers just seem too high to run significant boost to me. Maybe it'll work on the street for a short while...

If you can run 10.3:1 @ .7 bar, well, wow.

How? What makes this work and safe? EFI? The fuel pressure regulator? The same question pretty much applies to 9.5:1 @ .7 bar, although this isn't quite as worrying a prospect...
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Old 11-11-2007, 08:32 AM
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their advertised is 9.5 to 1 and a drop to 8.8 to 1 for .85 bar boost. for 3.2's

I guess this is their stage 2. which they do a "top end" don't know what that implies. Probably P&C from 930, and a clutch disk.

I don't know? maybe it's the chip and the rising rate reg. But I went with bell's FMU instead of protomotives altered stock unit.
whether it's 350 or 390 or 310, It's just plain cool.

One thing though, it doesn't feel fast anymore. Anyone choosing to go down this road, be aware, it never ends.

switch to map
lower compression
boost to 1.1
weld in reinforcements for the coil overs
turbo/header/muffler/crossover swap

OR
convince your neighbor to sell his 750 protomotive 996 TT
it's maddening, I just spillled most of the tank oil on the floor to, never done that before.
I'm waiting on some cat litter to help me out

Last edited by jbrinkley; 11-11-2007 at 09:56 AM..
Old 11-11-2007, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrinkley View Post
their advertised is 9.5 to 1 and a drop to 8.8 to 1 for .85 bar boost. for 3.2's
Well, that makes a lot more sense. So you're fine for Stage 1 with a stock US car and low boost.

Quote:
One thing though, it doesn't feel fast anymore. Anyone choosing to go down this road, be aware, it never ends.
Muahahahahahaha! Sorry, that was just begging for melodramatic villian laughter.

Well, at least we all have an idea of what we'd spend a lottery win on instead of wasting it...
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'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things.
Old 11-11-2007, 11:00 AM
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Check out the link I posted at the start to Protomotive.

Maybe I am wrong about timing... I just thought that when the boost comes on the AFM will know in relation to RPM and possibly retard the timing. Would I want to bet my $10,000 engine on it? No way...
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 11-11-2007, 11:53 AM
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Nathan, I understand and appreciate your concerns.

My car has the lower 'US' compression, we got the US cars after 85/86 I think, the fuel pressure regulator and chip are suppose to sort out fueling, in all honesty I think it's a big ask too but I trust merv as he has run it and knows what he's doing. I plan to use a MAP2ECU once it's all running which is a piggy back MAP unit.
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Old 11-11-2007, 01:31 PM
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Jerry:
The guy who built the Promotive I referenced saw my engine one evening, by chance, and commented on my turbo setup, as though mine were some POS and only a Promotive was the way to go. I ran on the track with this particular car before it had intercooling, and the Stage whatever upgrade, back when I still had 161 RWHP. It is a Carrera, and I haven't seen it on the track this year. The comment was that the engine was making low 300 HP, IIRC. If Promotive advertises 400 from this setup, they are a bit short on their estimates. If I dropped $10g on my engine, I could make 500 HP.

And, you're right, it never ends. My engine is out at the moment, getting fitted with a SS Webb airbox...I blew the plastic one up a few weks ago. So, while I'm in there, I'm rewiring the engine, and rebuilding the distributor.

Lastly, the center of the turbo universe is: what is the dynamic compression ratio? Low static CR and big boost, or high static CR, and low boost? What is the best compromise for the use of the car, and what can you live with for driveability? I calculated my BMEP one day, and I have BMEP around 205 or so, which is pretty good. How much charge can you pack into the cylinder, and how well can you burn it? HP is a function of CR.
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Old 11-11-2007, 01:54 PM
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Stage 1 which is the non intercooled setup with headers is said to make around 340 at the crank, with an intercooler and .7bar 400 is said to be achieved. It does sound like a hell of a lot but as I said this is what merv started out with and he did get numbers on the dyno to back up protomotive's claims. I'll ask him for more info, his thread is somewhere on this forum.

I have head from many people that the carrera engine does respond surprisingly well to boost and over here, back in the day, people where importing wide bodied carreras and turboing them to race over buying 930s as they had efi and a 5 speed. This is also meaned in the 101 projects book.
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'13 MV F4RR
Old 11-11-2007, 02:11 PM
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I don't see fuelling being an issue, infact it should be much better than any CIS.

It is the timing I can't see working. How does the 3.2 DME pull timing when on boost. The 3.2 DME has no map sensor. Maybe the timing is already pulled back.
I know the stock 930 timing is far from optimal off boost. This is where the drivability improvement comes from when people go with a aftermarket DME setup.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 11-11-2007, 02:32 PM
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quote

the 3.2 chips have a 7200 rpm rev-limit.
If it's a Stage 1 chip, the timing should be around 14deg at WOT
across peak torque, then back up to around 17deg.
idle timing should be 3-4deg btdc like stock.

I wish you luck pat.
For me, I'm done except for a dyno run, and more or less fuel with a turn of the knob.
Until I save enough for a big rebuild. I'm hoping next year sometime

Last edited by jbrinkley; 11-11-2007 at 07:22 PM..
Old 11-11-2007, 07:16 PM
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Well my injectors (30#) are maxed and they max at 300 hp (dutycycle maxes out running 3bar fuel pressure) My car is a blast I would guess about close to pats at the wheels. The nice thing with mine is that I need either bigger injectors or RRFPR to achieve some more HP. Mine runs .4 bar boost and I run twin plug with an intercooler. and mine is 3.2 short stroke built from a 81 sc engine. The pistons are 98mm JE's 8.5-1. I have full boost at 2700 rpm. You should check out my rebuild thread and my turbo charging thread.

my 3.2 ss/twin plug/turbo motor


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Old 11-12-2007, 04:35 AM
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there's the other thing I don't understand, how the hell do carrera injectors stand the .7 bar that Todd talks about? @400 or 390 HP.. how is that possible?
they don't swap injectors until the go up to .85 bar
Old 11-12-2007, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrinkley View Post
there's the other thing I don't understand, how the hell do carrera injectors stand the .7 bar that Todd talks about? @400 or 390 HP.. how is that possible?
they don't swap injectors until the go up to .85 bar
Rising rate fuel pressure regulator makes the injectors work at a lower duty cycle so they can support more hp as they have more pressure in my understanding. Tim T is pretty sharp on this maybe he will chime in
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Old 11-12-2007, 07:29 AM
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I thought 930 fprs were rising rate

thats something I never thought of.
this means, for example, your car has a regular fpr?

shows you how much I know
Old 11-12-2007, 08:38 AM
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