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LM1 - A/F ration Data interpretation

OK, I got the LM1 data and am told to go 12.5 on the Air/Fuel ratio. Here is what I get on the LM1:

at steady rpm, no acceleration

2000 rpm - 14.6
3000 rpm - 13.5
4000 rpm - 12.7

On full throttle hard acceleration at full boost of .8 bar at 4000 - 5000 rpm range LM1 reads 10.

So, my question is, when people say 12.5 is the goal, at what rpm and load are they referring to?

Thanks,

Rick

1986 911 turbo stock motor and turbo
Old 04-08-2008, 04:29 AM
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I'd say on CIS you want to be richer than 12.5 at the red line, i'd aim for 12.0, to be honest i'd probably be happier with 11.8-9 flat out. When you're cruising off boost the you can be far leaner, high 14's even, but as boost comes in you want to rapidly drop into the low 12's and to keep things cool no more than 12 would be my aim. I was high 12's at WOT and put a hole in a piston, live and learn!
When you're running EFI and you can measure the AFR from cylinder to cylinder then 12.5 would be OK at 1.0bar I believe, but your measuring an average over all six with one sensor, I would not be happy taking the risk unless i could verify that i was getting identical flow from each injector and identical AFR on each cylinder
Old 04-08-2008, 05:58 AM
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This is typical worn CIS behaviour. It runs pig rich then leans a bit on the top.

First, I suggest getting a AuxBox or RPM-converter so you can log both RPM, boost and lambda. Watching a display while driving is a great way to kill yourself.

Once you can interprete graphs offline, you can do something to fix rich condition you obviously have.

AFR of 10:1 at boost is way to rich. You are loosing power, using excessive amounts of fuel and dilution the oil. Checking control pressure is a good way to go, then maybe fitting adjustable WUR or RPM-switch to get rid of rich part.


Ideally, you would want something like 12.2-12.6 at WOT and full boost and around 14.6-14.7 at no load.
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Old 04-08-2008, 06:13 AM
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Goran,
I see various ranges of acceptable AFRs on boost with CIS. JBL likes 12.0 as the upper limit, you give a range of 12.2-12.6 while I shoot for 12.0-12.2 as the target.
What engine parameters are you basing your figures on? How do these figures change with increased boost pressure, say 0.7 to 1.0 bar on a typical 350WHP (@ 1bar) CIS 930 engine?
From dyno data you have done what is the difference in power when leaning from say 11.8 to 12.6 AFR? I have not done enough runs to see statistically significant results.
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Old 04-08-2008, 09:14 AM
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Rarely, i'd be happy with 12.2 also if it was confirmed as such. The problem i had with my LM1 was that the number after the decimal point was flickering quite badly at WOT making it almost impossible to read. In retrospect i would have liked to have seen high 11's so i knew i was safe. I've no doubt you can squeeze a few more horses out going closer to optimum AFR, but i think the gamble is too great with CIS, besides the mixture being richer helps temps, as long as it's not so rich it starts fouling plugs and washing out the oil. The main reason I advised Rick to stick to 12 or just under is for peace of mind, without doing a top end job on his engine and getting the injectors checked for perfect matching heading up to 12.6 like Beep says is to dangerous in my opinion, I guess it also depends what boost Rick is at, at 1.0bar i would think 12.6 is just too close to the bone

This is what my piston looked like after a long WOT run at high 12's

Old 04-08-2008, 11:49 AM
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JBL930, do you track your car, or was this on the street?
Sorry to hear about your luck.. that really stinks.
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Old 04-08-2008, 02:34 PM
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Hi Mark, this was at a VMax event (Maximum Velocity), 2 mile runway and basically go flat out. My car was running medium mods, B&B style headers, Fabspeed duel out, 1.0bar spring in standard wastegate (getting around 0.9bar), K27HFS turbo, IA fuel head, IA airbox, Ported heads, Ported manifold, 964 cams, tapered injector blocks, 964t intercooler, the weak spot was a dodgy WUR, I had an adjustable WUR in hand on the day but blew the engine on the first run.
From my experience trying to run optimum 12.5 to 12.6afr is plain silly without doing major verification on each cylinder. Keep it around 12 to be safe.
I have a modified 993tt motor in the 930 now, just waiting on the second oil cooler to be fitted and some tuning and i'll be back out there going flat out

A pic of the engine being installed



Mark, I see you have a KX250, I raced motorcross from schoolboy through to my early 20's, it's a while ago now but my last season was on a KX250, only club racing but those bikes are in my blood! Porsches and motorcross, we have a lot in common

Last edited by JBL930; 04-08-2008 at 05:04 PM..
Old 04-08-2008, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Goran,
I see various ranges of acceptable AFRs on boost with CIS. JBL likes 12.0 as the upper limit, you give a range of 12.2-12.6 while I shoot for 12.0-12.2 as the target.
What engine parameters are you basing your figures on? How do these figures change with increased boost pressure, say 0.7 to 1.0 bar on a typical 350WHP (@ 1bar) CIS 930 engine?
From dyno data you have done what is the difference in power when leaning from say 11.8 to 12.6 AFR? I have not done enough runs to see statistically significant results.

It's hard to generalize when it comes to what AFR gives most power. It varies from engine model to engine model. Also, the AFR that gives most power might not be the "safest" AFR.

CIS being mechanical and maybe flowing unevenly, it might be a good idea to run it richer than it should.

But most "real-world" engines give best power between 12.5-12.8. It all depends on plethora of details. Squish, ignition timing, position of ignition plug, cam timing etc.

Here is an interesting article, written by inventor of LM1:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/rich.php

Also, most EFI systems don't measure lambda on per-cylinder basis. You just assume that every injector flows the same and tune for correct lambda.

As I said before, It might be a good idea on this particular case (930 almost stock) to go for 12.2 to gain some margin to protect from failing parts but IMHO, the biggest inherent 930 CIS problems is that it leans towards the end.

On older cars, it often runs like this: Pig-rich on the onset of boost (like 10-11:1), then gradually leaning towards the top...in some cases reaching 13.5:1 around 6000 RPM. I believe that engine would go better if this non-linear AFR behaviour could be corrected. With other words, less rich in the midle and more rich up top.
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Old 04-09-2008, 08:00 AM
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Thanks for the many view points on this subject. I did have the top end rebuilt 2000 miles ago. Noticed that my plugs exhaust ports were crusted with deposits when I installed the B&B headers. Pulled the plugs and found that all were crusted equally as well. From my spark plug observation I don't see a hot cylinder in the mix, although plug reading is hardly a scientific approach to quantifying the injector output!

From the conversation I'd say that:

1. possibly my CIS is not working as well as it should
2. I could go leaner on my mixture
3. Keep the WOT no more than 12 to be safe
4. acquire the additional measuring devices to further fine tune my results

What about the no load AFR? I suspect that if I lean out the WOT to 12 that my "no load" AFR will be higher than 14.7. Should I be concerned?


Thanks

Rick
Old 04-09-2008, 10:06 AM
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You need the Brian Leask adjustable Warm up regulator and RPM solenoid, you can set all of the parameters with that, the WUR adjusts the control pressure to the fuel head by making it rich on cold start and then leaning it out as it warms up, then it also drops the control pressure to the fuel head on boost to fatten the mixture up again.
The adjustable unit allows you full control over all of the parameters, and the RPM controlled solenoid delays the boost signal to the WUR until the engine actually needs it, which gets rid of the pig rich mid range which will help with power and MPG. With fine tuning you can get a near flat AFR across the board, it also allows you to dial in more fuel if you go for more boost or other mods, it's the last modification i was planning on my car and it should have been the first!
Most of the modified 930's are running the Leask WUR, and i can imagine there are dozens of people on here with one, i'm sure they'll chime in and tell you what they think
Old 04-09-2008, 10:16 AM
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Where can I get more info on Brian's adjustable WUR? I searched the name but did not find any contact info.

Thanks
Old 04-10-2008, 03:08 PM
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Old 04-10-2008, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBL930 View Post
A pic of the engine being installed

Ahhh, that car sitting in Paul's work bay looks familar. Was sorry to hear about your motor. Give my regards to Paul, Ray & Mike.
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Old 04-10-2008, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
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Ahhh, that car sitting in Paul's work bay looks familar. Was sorry to hear about your motor. Give my regards to Paul, Ray & Mike.
You know the boys there then, good bunch of lads. Paul has done a great job with the install, i will pass on your regards!
Old 04-11-2008, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
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JBL,
Were all the cylinders this bad or was it just this one. If so, which cylinder was it?
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Old 04-11-2008, 06:30 AM
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Just one i think, don't remember which one but i'll ask and let you know
Old 04-11-2008, 09:43 AM
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Just one i think, don't remember which one but i'll ask and let you know
Thanks. Not a big issue...just curious.
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Old 04-11-2008, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBL930 View Post
I'd say on CIS you want to be richer than 12.5 at the red line, i'd aim for 12.0, to be honest i'd probably be happier with 11.8-9 flat out. When you're cruising off boost the you can be far leaner, high 14's even, but as boost comes in you want to rapidly drop into the low 12's and to keep things cool no more than 12 would be my aim. I was high 12's at WOT and put a hole in a piston, live and learn!
When you're running EFI and you can measure the AFR from cylinder to cylinder then 12.5 would be OK at 1.0bar I believe, but your measuring an average over all six with one sensor, I would not be happy taking the risk unless i could verify that i was getting identical flow from each injector and identical AFR on each cylinder
+1

Better to be safe than sorry.

As Goran said, get the data logging equipment.
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Old 04-26-2008, 09:39 AM
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What octane gas were you running? Was timing and boost good? Not excessive?

On a long run or at the track, I use 100 octane to prevent detonation/damage. Not that a higher octane is a cure all, but I think it helps prevent the problems among other things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBL930 View Post
Rarely, i'd be happy with 12.2 also if it was confirmed as such. The problem i had with my LM1 was that the number after the decimal point was flickering quite badly at WOT making it almost impossible to read. In retrospect i would have liked to have seen high 11's so i knew i was safe. I've no doubt you can squeeze a few more horses out going closer to optimum AFR, but i think the gamble is too great with CIS, besides the mixture being richer helps temps, as long as it's not so rich it starts fouling plugs and washing out the oil. The main reason I advised Rick to stick to 12 or just under is for peace of mind, without doing a top end job on his engine and getting the injectors checked for perfect matching heading up to 12.6 like Beep says is to dangerous in my opinion, I guess it also depends what boost Rick is at, at 1.0bar i would think 12.6 is just too close to the bone

This is what my piston looked like after a long WOT run at high 12's

Old 04-26-2008, 05:33 PM
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I am new to all of this and need some AFR help.

With a stock 1980 930 set up how do you adjust the AFR? Is it only the mixture screw adjustment near the top of the fuel distributor or is there another adjustment on the WUR?
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Old 04-28-2008, 10:33 AM
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