Slantnose, Slant nose,Slope, M505 factory 930S documents, registry, ultimate,flachbau

[kilodawg]

Hi guys,

Sorry, I just saw this thread. Been busy getting ready for the holiday and working on a 944 we got for my son (my covert DE car. Family bonding and all that ). Anyway, yes I'm going to try and work an official registry thru PCA this year. I tried briefly last year but was given the cold shoulder. This year things might be the same but I also have a little more influence possibly. I have two good contacts at the national level and I'm now the new President of our region. We will see if that helps. If not, I'm prepared to start a website as part of the next step. Eventually these cars will get their place in the sun....Stay in touch...and Happy Holiday's....

flachbau@cfl.rr.com

[onboost]

kilodawg..

from another thread ( I think, all this slant talk s makking me dizzy) you stated that the effort would be to include all slantnose care regarless of being 505, special wishes, or conversion. assume this will still be the intention?

Also, if there is anything on this end that I can do to help let me know... PCA National is right here in my back yard.. if you happen to speak w/ Vu, the current Executive Director, ask him about my showing up to the events with the wrong Horse on the hood... he'll get a kick out of that!

Thanks

Paul

[mede8er]

I know my 86 was a slant because the early records indicate work done on the light buckets....sure would like to find some documentation....it has since recieved regular front fenders....

[RarlyL8]

You should include factory/dealer converted slants even though they do not have the M505 designation. The one I worked on is a prime example. Dealer installed in '86 using only Porsche parts with full documentation. A nice piece of history.

[onboost]

Yep, that's why I asked.. My current 930 is a dealer converted slantnose by Alan Johnson Racing.

[kilodawg]

Personally even though I own an M505 car the real story is in the conversions. This is where things gets muddy. This whole effort is about capturing the history. That is how I plan to sell it to PCA. So far I have been just doing a lot of sitting back and absorbing all the info on the two threads that are currently running.

I would think that issues surrounding the '87 thru '89 cars should be relatively easy to clear up. Personally I doubt that for the M505 cars there were significant differences in the manufacture process (for the rear fender intakes and slats for example) I tend to think that by then the factory made them all the same way but for now I'm just taking in the data.

With the earlier conversions both factory and non-factory things become infinitely harder to ascertain for certain.

So my idea would be to try and capture all this history within the registry. When the database increases we should be able to better sort out the facts from the fiction. I'm sure it will be somewhat like it is with UFO's. There will always be some cases that defy logical explanation but that's what makes it fun to pursue.

I don't know what PCA will decide but for now I'd like to keep it open to all slant nose cars made made prior to or during the factory run including the 964 version as well. I may need to trim this down somewhat but for now I'm casting a wide net.

Here's a link I came across recently you all might enjoy.
http://forums.motivemag.com/zerothread?id=4109042

[WERK I]

Kilodawg,
Excellent article. The manufacturing process was a very interesting read. Thanks for the link.

[mede8er]

Great work!!!!!

[WERK I]

Guys,
I got Peter's response through a third party this morning. I thank him for taking the time to respond to my questions with his thoughtful response.

"The 'Sonderwunschen' (note the correct spelling - on the thread somebody
called it the sonderwush!) or special wishes cars were built as one-offs to
special customer order in the early days. They could be conversions to
factory fresh cars or to customer cars that had run for some time. They were
very handmade by the Repair and Restoration workshop in Werk 1,
Zuffenhausen.
When I looked through the sales records in Porsche back in 1993 (for the
first edition of Original 911), the first slant-nose style car listed was
93ZBS000619 delivered on 16 July 1981. They would convert both SC/Carreras
or Turbos. Juergen Barth agrees with that as well (see his Porsche Specials
book from 1984)
Since I wrote Original 911 somebody contacted me (in 2004)to say they had
the first slant-nose, VIN 93ZBS000136, delivered in June 1980. It appears to
be the car shown on the thread you sent me. I didn't see any record of that
car in Porsche, but of course, that doesn't mean to say they didn't do it.
The then-owner said he had a letter of authenticity from Porsche also. The
owner of the 1980 slant nose said the car was first manufactured (as a
regular 911 Turbo) in June 1980 and delivered to its owner in October the
same year. Apparently the car carries a dash plaque reading G/S/A-0/13/31.
The first and last letters are reported to stand for the first customer's
name - Gerhard Ammann, with the S likely standing for Sonderwunschen. It's
not a numbering system I've seen before in Porsche (but I'm always
learning).

The bottom line is that I suspect that (like many things to do with Porsche
before the mid-1990s), the number of slant-noses made before the car became
a regular production option/model is unknown. As somebody else noted on the
threads, there is evidence the Repair workshop were converting
already-delivered customer cars with special modifications (the RS).
That would explain why I didn't see any build records for such cars (a
different accounting cost code). It's so difficult to be sure on
authenticity as rumours and hearsay get passed down the years and soon what
was once just conjecture becomes 'must be right' fact.
It is also very straightforward for a modern bodyshop to receate these
cars.I would agree with one of the forum contributors that a good majority
of slant-noses are probably fakes - in the 1980s you could buy bolt on
panels from every self-respecting Porsche specialist.
The problem only comes when individuals go looking for large values from
these cars. It's down to those owners to prove they have something special
and for the market to decide if the car warrants special valuation.
By the way, both the black and the white slant-noses shown in the threads
look as though they have early front bumpers (with the four square
headlights and big square turn signals). The Ruf wheels and teardrop mirrors
are obviously later fitments. That doesn't mean to say they are the genuine
articles however.
I interviewed the old head of the Repair workshop some years ago and he said
they did bespoke conversions all the time. There was another slant-nose
conversion for an Arabian Sheik that had a special under dash compartment
for a machine pistol! There are allegedly other stories about payment
methods I can't relate in print.

The very, very important thing today is establishing whether these cars are
authentic. There are some very good sounding stories surrounding special
classic Porsches these days, but the important thing is to see authentic,
original, documentary provenance."

Hope that helps,

Peter

[kycarguy 935]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting WERK-I.

[kilodawg]

I agree for the non 505 cars authentication (to determine what the cars origins truly were) is of utmost importance in piecing together the overall story...

Also if you guys with period documentation could drop me an Email with what you have I can compile a list along with the items I have and at least start a data base of what this group has available. All my items are in the garage and my wife has informed me that if I step one more foot in there today I'm in trouble So I'll post my modest list of items tomorrow.

flachbau930@cfl.rr.com

[RarlyL8]

The '86 US slant that I had in the shop a few months ago is a good example of the cars you will likely not find any documentation on. This car was converted by a dealer in the US before the car was sold to the public. It does not have the M505 designation because it did not come out of the factory that way. It does however have full documentation and window sticker. All parts were genuine Porsche and the car is absolutely top notch. The option was very expensive at that time.

[kilodawg]

I would think that full documentation from the dealer would be all the documentation I would need and makes for part of the story we are trying to unravel...

[kycarguy 935]

Seeing pictures of slantnose cars being built in the special wishes program would be neat. I saw a picture in a book a coupe years ago but nothing else.

[kycarguy 935]

Here is that document I was looking for. Many of you have seen it but some may have not. This was sent to a gentleman that lived I believe lived in South Carolina and owned a beautiful 1989 Pearl White 930S cabriolet.

[mede8er]

Just found out my car was not factory...converted by Andial in 88 or 89. The console is a Gemballa product....

[kilodawg]

Okay,

I finally got the time to pull out an old Excellence issue I recently acquired which has a great article on the history of the slant nose cars.

It's the June 1988 issue (number 9). So it was written back in the day and the article is by Bruce Anderson and is entitled Slope Nose Conversions and other 911 Customs

I'll just highlight a few of the key points:

The first Werke 1 conversions took place in the winter of 80/81. All of the first 10 cars were completely hand made and included cutoff fenders, running boards and airdam/bumpers with the headlights mounted in them. There were no louvers in the front fenders nor brake scoops on these cars.

Then in '82 conversions were made available as part of the "Special Wishes" program (SOW) and now came with two variations. Lights either in the air dam or with folding headlights. It was the folding headlights that paved the way for the US version (930S).

Next the slant nose cars become available worldwide as part of the "Exclusive Program"
(now EXC, formerly Special Wishes). From 87 on these cars have been made completely by the production department but NOT on the production line but in a special workshop established just to build these special production cars (M505 and M506).

That's most of the info on the Factory built cars. There is also considerable info on the major European and America conversion companies. The article contains a wealth of intriguing info....

Also since this point comes up a lot, the article states that Porsche started making rear turbo flares (as opposed to welding on the flares) back in '86.

Now for the best part. Photos. It's hard to deduce which are factory pics verses conversion pics if indeed there is a difference but the article uses these pictures in the description of an after market conversion. My opinion (not worth much) is that the top two pictures in the set were factory photos and the bottom two are after market conversion shots. I don't know if they will definitively answer how the slant fenders were made at the factory but they are more than we have had on this thread up to now.



Next picture is also interesting and includes a mix of factory and non factory conversion items. As you can see the issue starts to get confused very early on.....



Enjoy!

[kycarguy 935]

Thanks kilodawg for posting this. I haven't seen this article since.......well about 1988.

I have that issue around here somewhere but haven't looked at it in awhile.

[WERK I]

Guys, I sent off an email to the Great Britain Porsche Club last week from a source at Peter Morgan's company. The PCGB has established a Porsche 930 SE registry some time ago and were kind enough to offer their own experiences in establishing some sort of database. I will post their observations in the next few windows.

Thanks to Barry Smith and Phil Clark of the Porsche Club - Great Britain for their contributions.
************************************************** ******
930 Turbo SE Register

Love or hate, like or loath, that’s the normal response of most people when they express an opinion on the 911 Turbo with Sport Equipment. Produced in the late 80,s as a limited production model the Turbo SE or Slant nose for me is arguably at the pinnacle of Porsche’s vision and philosophy of its sport’s car production of
that era, 959 accepted.
Borne out of customer demand and executed by the special wishes department at Zuffenhausen, these cars were and are special in every way, according to Porsche cars GB the total number of cars built for the English market was 49, maid up of 39 coupes and 10 cabriolets, and as with all Porsche cars destined for this country carry the C16 country code on the vehicle identification labels attached to the bonnet underside and the service book.

The build numbers were gained by going through every 930 chassis number and more importantly build sheets and specification codes for the cars imported between1986 to 1989 as the SE, s built by special wishes can’t be identified from chassis numbers alone. Outside of this search the first UK spec car a silver coupe currently belonging to Allan Windmill carries a 1985 chassis number so brings the build total to 50.

For model year 1985, WPO ZZZ 93ZFS ****** 1 was imported a coupe

For model year 1986, WPO ZZZ 93ZGS ****** 18 were imported all coupes

For model year 1987, WPO ZZZ 93ZHS ****** 8 were imported all coupes

For model year 1988,WPO ZZZ 93ZJS ****** 5 were imported (3 of which were cabriolets)

For model year 1989,WPO ZZZ 93ZKS ****** 18 were imported (7 of which were cabriolets)

And as with normal Porsche practice a number 2 placed in the second number position of the six sequential numbers in the 17charactur chassis number identifies the cabriolets, i.e.

WPO ZZZ 93ZJS020***, A zero in the same position identifies the coupe’s, that’s the easy bit from hear on SE identification becomes more difficult as every car tended to be built to a customer’s specific requirement chosen from the list of standard and special wish options.
Every special wishes 930 SE started out as a normal 911 Turbo and would be ordered as such this is the reason that the chassis numbering followed normal Turbo sequencing, along with this a separate conversion list unique to each vehicle was added to produce each Turbo SE, this on the face of it seems straight forward enough but the stage in production at witch the conversion was carried out seamed to have been a bit flexible as there are cars on the register that are known to have been completed as a standard Turbo then converted by the works to SE spec later, in some cases after delivery to the dealers and or customers thus requiring the car ,s return to the factory.

This fact can cause alarm to some subsequent owners as when they request a chassis check at Porsche Cars GB all they get back is the standard Turbo build and options list with no mention of any SE specification, this mistakenly leads them to doubt the authenticity of there car, in cases like this it can take time and several inquiries to finally discover if your care is what it seams, hopefully the register will untangle the original build history and in time provide in depth information for each and every car on it, so if you have a Turbo SE built to UK spec that’s not on PLEASE get in touch, more on build codes next month.



Pleasant Porschering

Barry Smith and Phil Clark

************************************************** ***************

More info to come............

[WERK I]

Phil Clark's response to my email:

"....... As you have stated getting chassis number info is to say the least very difficult, the fact is that the factory didn't make any distinction
in the record that could easily identify the Slant Nose cars until the 1987 model year cars got the 505 or 506 (flachbau model designation)
depending on the part of the world they were destined for, this is what makes it impossible to tell just from the chassis numbers.

When we first started our register in late 2004 we arranged to go to the factory archive to try and gather individual chassis info, this was lass than
successful, as it turned out Barry and I had already gathered more useful information and knew more about the 930 Slant Nose model, than they themselves had at that time in the archive.
As a result Barry and I supplied the all the information we had gathered along with the Cassis numbers to the archive for the C16 cars that we have on our register to the archive.

Identifying a genuine factory built Slant Nose is not easy, over a long period of time I have discovered several point of reference that help (I can never be totally sure until I have inspected a car in the flesh) and are guide reference only.

1 All factory Slant nose cars that came out of the special wishes program have a unique and different on each car number stamped on all the hand made metal conversion parts. (head light cover panels, box sill top sections, box sill side sections) etc.

2. The lift motor for the head lights is always central.

3. The rear wing vent ducts (the parts under the wheel arch) are made from glass fibre on the special wishes cars and are steel on the production 505 / 506 Slant Nose cars.

I have attached several reports that have appeared in our club magazine that form a regular register report, they are from when we first set up the register and will explain a lot of the background to what we believe to be true about the cars.

I have also attached some rare production images for you to savour.

Good luck in your endeavours and best wishes from Barry and myself."

Phil Clark

930 Turbo SE Register.
Porsche Club GB.