Latest Project - Headers

[RarlyL8]

400CHP would be a non-event as that is ~340WHP. My engine with SC cams and K27-7200 puts out 350WHP. This one has 964 cams and an K27HFS.

[torresmd]

I am not surprised by these findings. I knew my butt dyno was pretty accurate.

[911st]

So you are saying 400 Wheel HP (apx 470 crank HP) w your headers, Zork, & turbo -- with C2 cams.

On top of stock ports, stock Fuel Distribuitor, and stock intercooler.

Boost level unknown.

Wow!

Is that right?

_________

Steve, are they talking about your car or are you the builder?

[HelmetHead]

Ooooooh! Me want some!

[JBL930]

Something must have been done with the fueling, system pressure cranked up, adjustable WUR etc... The stock set up with stock WUR settings runs out a little above 400fwbhp.
Also with the stock intercooler they better not hold that car flat out for long!

Would like to know what boost level they got those figures, sounds a lot for an otherwise stock motor. Not saying it isn't possible, just not very safe! Head studs, oil cooling... something's gonna give.
Great result though, no doubt there. I'd be turning the boost down until the other stuff is addressed

[torresmd]

Originally Posted by 911st

So you are saying 400 Wheel HP (apx 470 crank HP) w your headers, Zork, & turbo -- with C2 cams.

On top of stock ports, stock Fuel Distribuitor, and stock intercooler.

Boost level unknown.

Wow!

Is that right?

_________

Steve, are they talking about your car or are you the builder?

No not my car. I have had some bad luck with my car recently. Looks like a re-build is in the near future.

[RarlyL8]

I'm assuming 1.0bar boost as this is a street car on pump gas and the mechanic is a reasonable guy. These numbers are not unrealistic when you add it all together.
Yes an oversized intercooler is suggested.
All you have to do with CIS at 400whp is adjust the stock components. That's about the limit.

I've got an HFS sitting on the shelf right now. My engine is also stock but I have SC cams instead of 964 cams. This makes me want to throw that HFS on, crank up the boost to 1.0bar, adjust the AFRs and hit the dyno! I think it is realistic that I should get close to 400WHP with the HFS at 1.0bar, right now I see 350WHP with the K27-7200 at 0.75bar.

[911st]

I have heard of 390hp through 'stock ports and cams' with over 1 bar boost on a C2 Turbo with just a good turbo (Tubonetics 60-1) and straight through muffler.

I have seen 430whp through 'stock ports' w SC cams and all the right goodies plus an extrude honed manifold with tapered injector blocks at over 1 bar, but it took a HF fuel distributor to support it and even that was near its fuel limit.

Thus, the ports do not have to be a limitation with the boost cranked up which I find intriguing.

Some make this same HP with less boost with good port work on a full top notch build.

The C2 cams and big turbo are probably going to make the 6k plus rpm range area a lot of fun as there is where they are probably going to shine the most.

It is a bit suspect that a stock fuel distributor can support that kind of HP with safe AFRs. Especially past 6k and that would require agressive lowering of control pressure I suspect.

Also I do not recall ever hearing of a stock 930 intercooler motor ever makeing 400whp with this kind of build.

I would be interested to see this guys AFR curve and Exhaust Gas Temps.

With a stock intercooler and fuel distribuitor assunming this thing is making about 470chp it is probably really on the edge.

Not sure this would be HP one could count on under real world conditions and have it live for very long.

Not an expert, just my opinion.

[JBL930]

I'm sorry Brian but it's a little more than "adjust the stock components", to support 450+fwbhp you need to do some major fuel adjustments (among other stuff). System pressure would need to be cranked up drastically, and control pressure on boost would need to be lowered drastically, doing so will result in the age old issue of 'seriously rich mid range' which can only be addressed with the rpm controlled solenoid to delay boost enrichment.
I know from experience that the stock fuel set up runs lean at around 400fwbhp, at 450 it would be detonating.
I love your headers, they are the tits! But lets keep things in check here, a stock engine with just the exhaust system changed and a K27HFS bolted on with a 1.0bar boost spring isn't going to run 400bhp at the wheels, there is more going on there if those figures are right.

A 9 second dyno pull isn't going to show up the drastically poor intake temps on the car mentioned, and if the fueling is stock it will also be dangerously lean, that engine will not live very long if it's left as it is. If it's never driven in anger then it'll be fine, but hold that thing flat out for 30 seconds or so and you'll have an engine in pieces!

Stock ports, stock intake, stock cams, stock intercooler, stock fueling.... no way 450+bhp, sorry. Maybe on a DynoJunk dyno, but not in the real world.....

[RarlyL8]

Yes and a few pages back my headers were no better than short tube OBX say the bench racers.

Sure the fuel will need more tuning as this was the first run with the new components. If more is needed than adjustments then it will be done. A larger intercooler will also likely be added.

These things are obvious.

Point is that this engine produces 400HP, bench racing is bull**** and I don't appreciate being called a liar.
This engine can easily be made to last by addressing the weak links.

[JBL930]

Who's calling you a liar?

Of course the engine can be made good to deal with the power, they can be made to hold double that power, and more! But not with everything left stock!

I'm not talking from a 'bench racing' perspective Brian, i'm talking from experience, either the dyno is spewing out BS figures, or that engine is about to pop.
I frankly don't believe it even remotely possible that with a HFS, 1.0 bar and stock cams/ports/intake etc that 450bhp is even on the cards.
I'm quite surprised that you haven't called it into question yourself! I was expecting you to post something along the lines of "i've spoken to them and said i advise they turn the boost down". Which idiot told them to bolt a HFS on an otherwise stock motor anyway?

[mb911]

Ok just called the shop and got the details as they have been a wonderful customer of mine over on the N/A side for years

89 930
stock fueling(may be adjusted but still stock)
b&b half bay IC
1 bar boost
12.5 AFR (which they are going to drop for long term)
zork
964 cams
headers
hf turbo
400hp @wheels
dynapack dyno

now you guys have all the facts and can draw your own conclusions

[RarlyL8]

I frankly don't believe it even remotely possible that with a HFS, 1.0 bar and stock cams/ports/intake etc that 450bhp is even on the cards.
I'm quite surprised that you haven't called it into question yourself!

I don't know what part of that isn't calling me a liar but if you say so ...
You need to re-read the original post. The engine has 964 cams. Heads are stock.

My point in this post is that the only internal change on this engine is the cams. Forget the fuel, forget the intercooler, those things will be addressed if need be.

I see this engine has the exact same intercooler as my engine. The only difference in our engines is the cams; 964 vs SC.
Yes I most certainly expect 400WHP out of my engine when I add the HFS and increase the boost to 1.0bar.

[JBL930]

That looks more believable Ben, thanks!
Did they mention whether any head work was done when they changed the cams? Does it have any other work on the intake side?
That's still big power for what's done, would love to see a copy of the dyno sheets if you can get a copy

[JBL930]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

I don't know what part of that isn't calling me a liar but if you say so ...
You need to re-read the original post. The engine has 964 cams. Heads are stock.

My point in this post is that the only internal change on this engine is the cams. Forget the fuel, forget the intercooler, those things will be addressed if need be.

I see this engine has the exact same intercooler as my engine. The only difference in our engines is the cams; 964 vs SC.
Yes I most certainly expect 400WHP out of my engine when I add the HFS and increase the boost to 1.0bar.

I was calling the figures into question Brian, not you, you are just relaying what you have been told. If you see that as me calling YOU a liar then you have insecurity issues!

The original post said that everything was stock other than the exhaust, turbo and boost level. Now we see that isn't the case..... I still can't believe you thought it was even possible

[mb911]

Originally Posted by JBL930

That looks more believable Ben, thanks!
Did they mention whether any head work was done when they changed the cams? Does it have any other work on the intake side?
That's still big power for what's done, would love to see a copy of the dyno sheets if you can get a copy

nohead work and I don't feel it right for me to post a copy as this between the shop and their client. I will ask but don't think I will get any where

[mb911]

Also it was never said to bone stock it was posted that it had a turbo upgrade and 964 cams the only thing that changed was the IC and we all knew about the headers right?

[DDDD]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

I'm assuming 1.0bar boost as this is a street car on pump gas and the mechanic is a reasonable guy. These numbers are not unrealistic when you add it all together.
Yes an oversized intercooler is suggested.
All you have to do with CIS at 400whp is adjust the stock components. That's about the limit.

I've got an HFS sitting on the shelf right now. My engine is also stock but I have SC cams instead of 964 cams. This makes me want to throw that HFS on, crank up the boost to 1.0bar, adjust the AFRs and hit the dyno! I think it is realistic that I should get close to 400WHP with the HFS at 1.0bar, right now I see 350WHP with the K27-7200 at 0.75bar.

I don't know about fuel flow but overall Brain's claim is not that far fetched based on his dyno numbers. If you multiply 350 rwhp by about 1.17 to get a guesstimate at flywheel, he is already at 409.5 fwhp. Add a guesstimate of 15 flywheel hp for each of the 2.5 bar increments going from .75 to 1 bar and that is 37.5 more fwhp right there, putting Brian at just under 450 fwhp WITHOUT changing the turbo.

Not saying that every number adds up perfectly but just suggesting that perhaps Brian has studied the situation up close and just maybe the only reason we haven't seen 450 fwhp yet is because nobody has lined up everything just right, including using Brian's header.

I think cooler heads would prevail if we let the process unfold. So far I have not heard anything but positive upside with these headers and future experimentation will reveal exact power levels and not just on Brian's car but those of his customers.

I think we should just let science take it's course on this before deciding what the limits of Brian's headers are.

[JBL930]

The discussion was never about the headers, i am a big fan of Brians headers, if anyone on Any forum asks the question about headers i'm straight on there pointing them in Brians direction. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that his headers are FAR better than any other 'off the shelf' header available, if i was looking for a set of headers for a 930 or 964 then I wouldn't buy anything else, period!!

I do think it's important not to let people run away with BS dyno claims though, and it sounded very much like a "all you need is a turbo, headers and a spring and you've got 400bhp at the wheels", which simply isn't the case. I missed that the cams were mentioned earlier, my bad there, but if i'm honest i still think the figure is high. I've seen less power from a K29 3.4 build with similar boost, and lots of head work. 450bhp is a lot, the stock intake system, manifold/airbox/port sizes/ETC are too restrictive. And a totally stock fuel system will be running WAY lean for that level, it's just a matter of fact.
Dyno's can read whatever you want them to read, for instance input the wrong barometric pressure and it'll skew your readings massively, the same with IAT... I'm not saying it's done intentionally, but it happens.

Since i'm already the bad guy, lets actually look at Brians figures. Basically he has the same set up as a stock 964 turbo, only difference being SC cams as opposed to 964 turbo cams, and his exhaust system. Boost level the same, intake the same apart from the airbox, same turbo etc... What does a stock 964 turbo produce 'at the wheels' with that boost and that turbo?

[DDDD]

At this point I don't think it is about which dyno or what temperature. There is a general consensus about these headers amoung everybody that uses or tests them. More off boost/low end power and ridiculous high end.

I think that they would perform even better %wise versus shorties as the horsepower increases because of the way they flow at top end. Somebody is going to flow a 600+hp engine through one of these headers soon enough I imagine. I don't doubt that these headers could work in better synergy with a high flow turbo than what we are used to seeing.

Obviously fuel would need to be enriched but that is part of the process of tuning the new exhaust in. The ideal way to dynotest two exhausts on CIS would be to tune each to it's best relative performance and compare that. The problem is that we keep talking in theory and Brian's headers keep blowing the theories out of the water.

I don't think Brian would ever run an engine on that power level and regular CIS around town but as a target to hit a blip on the dyno it just does not seem far fetched to me.