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Motronic's turbo conversion thoughts?

We are lucky to have 911chips.com and Protomotove to support converting 3.2 Carrera's and C2's to turbo. Such conversions seem to work well and can make a huge amount of HP

However, I am wondering if the following ideas make any sense or have potential.

On the fuel side:

For something like running .4 bar (6psi) with a stock 3.2, we could get more fuel by increasing the fuel delivery with a stock style higher pressure fuel pressure reg (stock 3.2 is 2.5bar) or change to larger injectors with the goal of increasing fuel delivery about about 40-50%.

Then to balance, tune and adjust for this by tightening the spring in the AFM so it progresses about 30-40% slower.

On top of this we can also play with the fuel quality switch to add 3.1 or 6.3% more fuel or subtract 3.9% of the fuel delivery.

On the ignition side the stock chip is pretty conservative. Also, with a blow through AFM, temp sensing is at the AFM and I believe can retard timing up to about 3 deg with heat. One could also use the Fuel Quality Switch on the ECU to retard timing 2 deg.

There is also the Calif/Japan brown jumper at the ECU that leans part throttle fueling and retards timing 3 deg. This might be a good fit with such a strategy.

A 3.2 running about 1.4 boost should make about 340fwhp.


As to a 3.6 (89-95 w AFM's) one would probably need to cut the dome's off the pistons or run J&E's. I believe that cutting the stock pistons down can get us to about 8.5/1 cr.

With this one might be able to run up to 1.7 bar for about 440fwhp.

With the 3.6 we would probably have to add injectors that flow some 70-80% more. Not sure if we can slow down the AFM flapper valve that much.

Increasing fuel deliver at the same duty cycle and slowing the AFM meters rate to a percentage of this is key to this concept.

On the ignition side, the 3.6 is timed for 11.2/1 compression already. If we stay at .7 bar and set the compression to 8.5/1 we will have about the same effective compression rate on boost as the stock N/A motor.

On top of that the 3.6 has knock sensing ability. If we do not get to carried away we may not need to worry much about the spark side on a 3.6. If they have a fuel quality switch, we could pull timing back a bit just to be safe.


Of course the best approach is to convert to a fully programmable system or go the with a Raising Rate fuel pressure reg and or Protomotive chip.


Dose anyone else think this might work or see any big holes in such an approach.

Last edited by 911st; 01-26-2010 at 09:34 AM..
Old 01-26-2010, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
A 3.2 running about 1.4 boost should make about 340fwhp.
Not quite sure i follow u.

This is a dyno of Jerry's (jbrinkley) 'cook book' bolt-on protomotive 3.2 turbo (chip, RRFPR, stock turbo headers, etc). He is making 327 reliable hp to wheels at a conservative (.7/.8?) bar without an intercooler, which is over your goal of 340fwhp at 1.4 bar.


Are u talking about running a stock items but just with modifications to the injectors, timing, AFM, FPR, etc?
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Old 01-26-2010, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juicersr View Post
Not quite sure i follow u.

Are u talking about running a stock items but just with modifications to the injectors, timing, AFM, FPR, etc?
Sorry.

Mostly just a strategy of increasing the flow at the injectors to support the turbo.

Then tune around this by increasing in spring tension at the AFM.

I guess that is the question. Dose that make sense?

Thx.
Old 01-26-2010, 01:33 PM
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"Then tune around this by increasing in spring tension at the AFM."

Thats the opposite of what I do when tuning L- jetronic for more power.
L-jetronic is similar to motronic, but it's analog, fires the injectors 3 at a time alternating on a 6 cylinder engine, is less accurate and only does the injection and has nothing to do with the ignition.

I loosen tension on the barn door spring in the AFM so it opens easier and farther so the motor breathes easier and injector dwell time is increased for any given rpm and then compensate for the barn door opening farther at idle and being too rich by opening up the CO air bypass screw in the AFM so the barn door closes up and the AFR is correct at idle.
Then install an adjustable rising rate wide band fuel pressure regulator on the end of the fuel rail so you can have higher fuel pressure under acceleration and zero manifold vacuum.
You can also take the stock fuel pressure regulator and take 2 sockets of the right size and squeeze the ends of the metal housing together a little bit in a vise. That increases the spring pressure inside the FPR and raises the fuel pressure, but an aftermarket adjustable vaccum controlled rising rate FPR is wayyyy better.

Along with that I install a 10,000 ohm linear taper potentiometer in series with the engine temp sending unit so you can add resistance to the sensors reading and make the ECU think it's colder out than it is up to 30 below zero so injector dwell time is increased for alot more fuel with the turn of a knob on the dashboard.
Of course there are alot of different EFI injectors to choose from but I never turbocharged a car with EFI so didn't need to.

I love the simplicity, accuracy, and adjustability of EFI and I wish CIS was never invented.
Old 01-26-2010, 02:08 PM
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Wow, cool.
Old 01-26-2010, 02:34 PM
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Interesting thread, sign me up Iím up to learning more about Motronic and exploring different strategies to control the fuel and timing needs of a low boost turbo conversion.

Thoughts that come to mind,

Defining the target hp attainable within the limitations of the Motronic components and reverse engineering from there for the most cost effective conversion.

Target Hp: this is open for debate, but for a starting point lets say in the range of 350 to about 400 hp max. (From what I have read 400 hp seems to be the limit from stock injectors operating at higher rail pressure) also the restriction of the barn door becomes more of an issue as CFM flow increases. Also there is the Blow through VS Draw through debate, perhaps some interesting feedback will emerge along the way.

Fuel:
Bumping fuel rail pressure using a variable rate regulator is one method that is already proven to work and may very well be the simplest. Off boost the injectors are properly sized can run on the stock fuel maps and on boost the pressure regulator is tuned to supply the extra fuel needed.

Some will say that running larger injectors with stock fuel pressures is better and thatís fine but the downside is that you need the properly tuned chip or programmable system and even then the larger injectors are more difficult to tune for a decent idle. Though perhaps the best method when all sorted, it is by far the most expensive and most complex to install a programmable system.

Supplementation of the fuel system with Water/Methanol injection has the added benefit of reducing charge temp while having the same effect of increasing octane thereby reducing detonation potential.

Another idea that Iíve toyed with mentally anyway is adding 1 or possible 2 extra injectors (depending on size) mounted in a fabricated spacer housing bolted just under the throttle plate. Placing the injection spray in the direct path of the incoming air providing the best atomization and delivery. This in essence is throttle body injection TBI. These injectors would be controlled by the onset of boost by a pressure switch and only operate when needed.
The Motronic injectors are batch fired, alternately left and right bank, so Iím thinking is it possible to additionally fire one more small injector of the same impedance off each bank?

Simple software with the ability to Reprogram the Motronic chip fuel and ignition tables would be great if anyone knows about this and is willing to share.

I will go out on the limb here and say that, it seems as though we can control the additional fuel needs with out changing the fuel tables in the chip. The bigger hurtle is how can we alter or control the ignition timing without altering the timing maps?

Ignition:
What options do we have to retard timing under load (boost)
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Old 01-26-2010, 06:56 PM
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As to timing:

Could add MSD with boost retard.

We can also use the fuel quality switch on the ECU.

There is also the brown wire jumper at the ECU.

One could also move the timing sensor at the flywheel.

Suck v blow throught.

Turbos do not like restriction in the intake to the turbo which makes a blow through a positive.

However, there is temp sensing at the AFM. With heat it pulls back timing and fuel. This may or may not be a concern if we get enough fuel w pressure or injectors.

On the 944T Porsche did a suck through. I think that was up to about 270-300hp.

I think the early BMW M5's used the same size AFM and the euro was good to about 310hp.

I suspect the AFM on the intake is more restrictive.

Also turbo's pass oil. As such with a blow through there will be some coating of the AFM with a blow through.

One of the issues with the 3.2 system is after about 170hp the AFM bottoms out. After that it is a referance system. Not sure what would happen of we bottom it out at 3500rpm with a turbo.

This is part of the reason I was thinking we would probably have to tighten the spring on the AFM.

As Jim noted, loosening the AFR spring lets the motor go fatter earlier so that is something to think about.

Over on the 944T board there is a pretty cool product they are using. It converts the system to a Mass Air Pressure system using an interface computer in place of the AFM.

Seems pretty tunable and gets rid of the AFM restriction. I believe is also allows playing with the timing via the temp signal.

Having said all that Protomotive's Vacuum Sensing (now offered through dealers like S Car Go) is something to consider. Especially of big HP is a goal. He adds a TPS to the throttle body and a MAP connection so the AFM is eliminated (somewhat like the RUF Yellow Bird) It was about $2k and he gives you a program so you can burn your own chips.
Old 01-26-2010, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
"Then tune around this by increasing in spring tension at the AFM."

Thats the opposite of what I do when tuning L- jetronic for more power.
L-jetronic is similar to motronic, but it's analog, fires the injectors 3 at a time alternating on a 6 cylinder engine, is less accurate and only does the injection and has nothing to do with the ignition.

I loosen tension on the barn door spring in the AFM so it opens easier and farther so the motor breathes easier and injector dwell time is increased for any given rpm and then compensate for the barn door opening farther at idle and being too rich by opening up the CO air bypass screw in the AFM so the barn door closes up and the AFR is correct at idle.
Then install an adjustable rising rate wide band fuel pressure regulator on the end of the fuel rail so you can have higher fuel pressure under acceleration and zero manifold vacuum.
You can also take the stock fuel pressure regulator and take 2 sockets of the right size and squeeze the ends of the metal housing together a little bit in a vise. That increases the spring pressure inside the FPR and raises the fuel pressure, but an aftermarket adjustable vaccum controlled rising rate FPR is wayyyy better.

Along with that I install a 10,000 ohm linear taper potentiometer in series with the engine temp sending unit so you can add resistance to the sensors reading and make the ECU think it's colder out than it is up to 30 below zero so injector dwell time is increased for alot more fuel with the turn of a knob on the dashboard.
Of course there are alot of different EFI injectors to choose from but I never turbocharged a car with EFI so didn't need to.

I love the simplicity, accuracy, and adjustability of EFI and I wish CIS was never invented.
Great info,
As you mentioned above the L-jetronic is analog, only does the injection and has nothing to do with the ignition. So on this system its safe to say that the input from the temp sending unit only has the affect on injector dwell (which your clever potentiometer mod takes advantage of)

Since the Motronic ML3.1 has both an analog and digital side to it The Intel 8051 Microcontroller - The Land of NoVA/DC/MD area Porschephiles http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=16863 and 2 temp sensors, 1 in the AMF housing and 1 on the cylinder head and controls both fuel and ignition, I wonder if we can do the same potentiometer mod? Perhaps someone can enlighten us,

I also believe that ML3.1 can retard ignition using temp sensor input when confronted with very high ambient temps when there is a greater risk of potential detonation. But by how much?

I've read the plus side of the Motronic system over others is in its ability to compensate for mild build changes and during warm up. My understanding is that this system was tested to operate in a wide geographical heat range from extreme hot to extreme cold which is a plus and we might be able to take advantage of the built in temperature compensation to further adjust our ignition needs while on boost.
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Last edited by Dynamohum; 01-27-2010 at 09:37 AM.. Reason: correction
Old 01-27-2010, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
As to timing:

Could add MSD with boost retard.

We can also use the fuel quality switch on the ECU.

There is also the brown wire jumper at the ECU.

One could also move the timing sensor at the flywheel.

Suck v blow throught.

Turbos do not like restriction in the intake to the turbo which makes a blow through a positive.

However, there is temp sensing at the AFM. With heat it pulls back timing and fuel. This may or may not be a concern if we get enough fuel w pressure or injectors.

On the 944T Porsche did a suck through. I think that was up to about 270-300hp.

I think the early BMW M5's used the same size AFM and the euro was good to about 310hp.

I suspect the AFM on the intake is more restrictive.

Also turbo's pass oil. As such with a blow through there will be some coating of the AFM with a blow through.

One of the issues with the 3.2 system is after about 170hp the AFM bottoms out. After that it is a referance system. Not sure what would happen of we bottom it out at 3500rpm with a turbo.

This is part of the reason I was thinking we would probably have to tighten the spring on the AFM.

As Jim noted, loosening the AFR spring lets the motor go fatter earlier so that is something to think about.

Over on the 944T board there is a pretty cool product they are using. It converts the system to a Mass Air Pressure system using an interface computer in place of the AFM.

Seems pretty tunable and gets rid of the AFM restriction. I believe is also allows playing with the timing via the temp signal.

Having said all that Protomotive's Vacuum Sensing (now offered through dealers like S Car Go) is something to consider. Especially of big HP is a goal. He adds a TPS to the throttle body and a MAP connection so the AFM is eliminated (somewhat like the RUF Yellow Bird) It was about $2k and he gives you a program so you can burn your own chips.
I like the idea of the MSD boost retard MSD Boost Timing Master Ignitions - SummitRacing.com
It gives you up to 15deg of adjustable timing retard, which is great and not to pricey.
So how much retarded timing do we need while under boost from the stock maps?

Problem with using the fuel Quality switch on the ECU is that it affects the full range of the maps and ideally we just want to pull timing under boost, leaving idle and off boost cruse alone.
Also I don't know if we can get enough retard from this, the max I'm seeing is -2.79deg of retard. That said if used Position #6 on the fuel quality switch seems to best option with +6.3% of fuel and -2.79deg of timing. The Motronic Web Site Go to the left hand side and down to the FQS fuel quality switch button. Lots of Motronic info on this site.

Re: moving the timing sensor at the flywheel, would change the full range of timing, you could do the same by rotating the distributor, but that's not to our benefit. To maintain good drive ability, ideally we only need adjustment during boost.

I think JFairman and you are onto something with the output from temp sender.
I'm not sure how much they actually pull back or what this is capable of -3deg? Can this be confirmed? and by which temp sensor, the one on the cyl head or in the AMF?

more later
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Old 01-27-2010, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
"Then tune around this by increasing in spring tension at the AFM."

Thats the opposite of what I do when tuning L- jetronic for more power.
L-jetronic is similar to motronic, but it's analog, fires the injectors 3 at a time alternating on a 6 cylinder engine, is less accurate and only does the injection and has nothing to do with the ignition.

I loosen tension on the barn door spring in the AFM so it opens easier and farther so the motor breathes easier and injector dwell time is increased for any given rpm and then compensate for the barn door opening farther at idle and being too rich by opening up the CO air bypass screw in the AFM so the barn door closes up and the AFR is correct at idle.
Then install an adjustable rising rate wide band fuel pressure regulator on the end of the fuel rail so you can have higher fuel pressure under acceleration and zero manifold vacuum.
You can also take the stock fuel pressure regulator and take 2 sockets of the right size and squeeze the ends of the metal housing together a little bit in a vise. That increases the spring pressure inside the FPR and raises the fuel pressure, but an aftermarket adjustable vaccum controlled rising rate FPR is wayyyy better.

Along with that I install a 10,000 ohm linear taper potentiometer in series with the engine temp sending unit so you can add resistance to the sensors reading and make the ECU think it's colder out than it is up to 30 below zero so injector dwell time is increased for alot more fuel with the turn of a knob on the dashboard.
Of course there are alot of different EFI injectors to choose from but I never turbocharged a car with EFI so didn't need to.

I love the simplicity, accuracy, and adjustability of EFI and I wish CIS was never invented.
Jim, sounds like you've been palying around with a few BMWs eh?
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Old 01-27-2010, 09:47 AM
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Personally, I like the idea of modding/adding EFI to a 930 via Motronic. Most of what's there is readily available, repalaceable, it fits and it works. Turn the neck on the manifold and re-config the throttle linkage and your there. As far as the ECU or EMS (which ever you prefer), I think there are enough smart guys out there that know how to manipulate that system.. and

I've even seen a couple that have adapted other ECUs to the Motronic harness, bumped-up to higher flowing injectors, and use no AFM all with great results.
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Old 01-27-2010, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
As to timing:

Could add MSD with boost retard.
Looking at installation instructions for the analog 5462 MSD with boost retard for further insight on how to install this with Motronic ignition driver.
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/msd-5462_frm28661.pdf

The ignition coil driven by the ML3.1 only has 2 connections and there is no signal wire to tap the white trigger wire into at the distributor required on the MSD install, so how and where do we get a signal from?

From what I'm seeing item # 9 the Motronic ignition driver is integral to the box and from this site Inside a Carrera ML3.1 DME - The Land of NoVA/DC/MD area Porschephiles they say its digital while the MSD box is looking for an analog signal.

Any One using the MSD with Motronic that can help shed some light?
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onboost View Post
Personally, I like the idea of modding/adding EFI to a 930 via Motronic. Most of what's there is readily available, repalaceable, it fits and it works. Turn the neck on the manifold and re-config the throttle linkage and your there. As far as the ECU or EMS (which ever you prefer), I think there are enough smart guys out there that know how to manipulate that system.. and

I've even seen a couple that have adapted other ECUs to the Motronic harness, bumped-up to higher flowing injectors, and use no AFM all with great results.
I like that idea also, do you have any links to these guys and what they have done?
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamohum View Post
I like that idea also, do you have any links to these guys and what they have done?
I have no links.. these were car that I have seen at local shops and/or individuals I have met and talked with at various events.. one such being Hershey.

I am however considering going this route for the build on my spare engine.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juicersr View Post
Not quite sure i follow u.

This is a dyno of Jerry's (jbrinkley) 'cook book' bolt-on protomotive 3.2 turbo (chip, RRFPR, stock turbo headers, etc). He is making 327 reliable hp to wheels at a conservative (.7/.8?) bar without an intercooler, which is over your goal of 340fwhp at 1.4 bar.


Are u talking about running a stock items but just with modifications to the injectors, timing, AFM, FPR, etc?
I think this is the same car that Twinny bought from Jerry (Jbrinkley) and the dyno output? "Quote I bought Jerry's car and imported over here to the UK. It's still mapped for 91 RON though it runs on 98 here so there should be a little more to come."

Here's the chart (flywheel corrected) 0.6 bar spring (dyno showed 0.53 bar boost)

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Old 01-27-2010, 10:24 AM
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Someone might check with AEM. They have plug in controllers that plug into stock wire harnesses on many car. They might have a box that will plug into the Motronics wire harness and then can use the existing crank signal. Then the AFM could be eliminated and a TPS, MAP, and temp sensor could take the place of the old throttle switch and afm. This could be a much easier way to go to full program-ability.

MSD, do a search. There was someone that did add MSD to there Carrera. Also, Split Second Timing might make a box that can delay the crank signal using MAP and RPM.
Old 01-27-2010, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Someone might check with AEM. They have plug in controllers that plug into stock wire harnesses on many car. They might have a box that will plug into the Motronics wire harness and then can use the existing crank signal. Then the AFM could be eliminated and a TPS, MAP, and temp sensor could take the place of the old throttle switch and afm. This could be a much easier way to go to full program-ability.

MSD, do a search. There was someone that did add MSD to there Carrera. Also, Split Second Timing might make a box that can delay the crank signal using MAP and RPM.
I sent an email to the tech's at Summit Racing equipment asking them for suggestions with finding a trigger supply on the Motronic ML3.1 to run the MSD 5462

Meanwhile I'll spend more time working that search Engine
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:16 AM
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Does anyone know the exact set up for the CTR? A friend who had one said they ran stinking rich to cope with all the boost and heat, so they could cope with mile upon mile of Autobahn abuse.
Thought maybe their system might now be easy to replicate?

"For the CTR Ruf uses his own intake manifold similar in design to the Carrera manifold, but larger in capacity with the special Digital Motronic Electronic (DME) fuel injection and ignition system that was originally developed for the Porsche 962 race cars used to control the fuel mixture and ignition timing. Instead of measuring the air flow like most electronic engine management systems do this system is a pressure sensing type system which uses throttle position, rpm, engine temperature and manifold pressure as input signals. This was the first of these high powered 911 turbo engines that really ran right and made a lot of horsepower"
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:50 AM
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JBL930

There is a picture of the Ruf Yellow Bird CTR engine on page 194 of Bruce Anderson 3rd addition 911 Performance Handbook with the Motronic DME
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Thank You for your time, Paul. We do because we can.
87 911 3.2 (Turbo conversion, build in progress, Thermal Barrier Coatings, High Pressure Dry film coatings) Modified heads, boat-tailed case, ARP hardware, OBX Header, 930 clutch disk, G50 Trans
89 5.0 Mustang convertible (For Sale)
Old 02-02-2010, 05:57 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sacramento
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I think it was based on a 962 injection driver but not sure. Probably a one off for RUF.

It would not be hard to weld a second set of injector bosses on a stock Carrera manfold. This was done to get a good idle and have enough fuel for his big HP.

Seems we can do this with a single plug system now.

If it has not been said, Protomotive dose a Mass Air Pressure system that is close for about $2200.

I checked on the AEM pluging into the Motronic's system and it is a non starter.
Old 02-02-2010, 06:22 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
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