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equality72521's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Researching EFI, have questions

So I'm starting to do some research on EFI systems. Needless to say I'm about the variety out there. What I want to know is what are the pros and cons of each of the major players out there. I've seen Motec, SDS, Megasquirt, Haltech, ..... I am not going for huge HP, or even an increase, I just want to lose CIS and get something more modern, i.e. an engine management system rather than a fuel delivery system. I will be keeping my stock intake manifold and I/C, or maybe a half bay I/C someday. I also want distributerless ignition incorporated. I am interested in keeping costs down and will be doing all of my own work. Please, CIS proponents need not apply. If I wanted to keep it I wouldn't be posting this. Thanks in advance for your help.
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Mark 1979 930 Euro ***GONE AND DON'T MISS IT AT ALL***

"Worrying about depreciation on your car and keeping mileage down is like not ****ing your girlfriend so her next boyfriend finds her more appealing"
--clutch-monkey
Old 12-26-2012, 03:32 PM
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Mark, hi....this sounds like an echo of my opening gambit, some 15/16 months ago ....can't comment on the pro's/cons of each management vendor, sorry, as MBE was the only system under consideration for me...... previous experience and friendship with my pal supplying the electronics and mapping it when the time comes.....link below--->
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:37 PM
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I opted for MS-3 there are quite few people here who are do it your self types who have went to mega sqirt. If you plan on having a shop do it then use the system that shop is familiar with.
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Old 12-26-2012, 04:24 PM
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Mark,
Have you looked into EFI University? They have a forum which could provide you with starting points.

http://www.efi101.com/index.html
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
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Old 12-26-2012, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken911 View Post
I opted for MS-3 there are quite few people here who are do it your self types who have went to mega sqirt. If you plan on having a shop do it then use the system that shop is familiar with.
I've been looking at Megasquirt. I'm not afraid of DIY. I just wasn't sure if it was a good system. I am hoping for people with hands on with it.
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Mark 1979 930 Euro ***GONE AND DON'T MISS IT AT ALL***

"Worrying about depreciation on your car and keeping mileage down is like not ****ing your girlfriend so her next boyfriend finds her more appealing"
--clutch-monkey

Last edited by equality72521; 12-26-2012 at 05:32 PM..
Old 12-26-2012, 05:28 PM
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Edited due to misunderstanding on my part.
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Mark 1979 930 Euro ***GONE AND DON'T MISS IT AT ALL***

"Worrying about depreciation on your car and keeping mileage down is like not ****ing your girlfriend so her next boyfriend finds her more appealing"
--clutch-monkey

Last edited by equality72521; 12-28-2012 at 01:37 PM..
Old 12-26-2012, 05:31 PM
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I would think the least expensive choice if you are going to do it completely yourself would be MS2 with an EDIS ignition which would give you batch injection with wasted spark ignition. You would need fuel rails with injector adapters (?TurboKraft), a fuel pressure regulator, a crank pulley with 36-1 toothed wheel with Ford VR sensor/mount, an EDIS-6 controller, an EDIS-6 coil pack with spark plug wires, assorted sensors (throttle position sensor, coolant temperature, intake air temperature), and appropriately sized fuel injectors.
Sequential spark and ignition could be done with MS3/MS3X with the addition of a cam sensor and appropriate increase in number of coils, cost, and complexity of wiring harness.
If you are going to have someone else tune the car, I would highly recommend using whatever system they are used to.
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1983 3.4L 911SC turbo, GT35R, flame ringed 8.5:1 JE's, MS3-MS3X sequential EFI, LS2(D585) CNP twin-plug ignition, full-bay intercooler, J&S Interceptor (twin 993 knock sensors/bridges), and working A/C. Another e85 corn panzer.
Old 12-26-2012, 05:40 PM
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Yes MS2 with EDIS is the way to go. If you have a shop build and tune the system you will be helpless and need to rely on them for any tweaks or upgraded. That cost more money down the road. Install and learn the system, trust me if you are a hands on guy you'll love it.
Old 12-26-2012, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Yes MS2 with EDIS is the way to go. If you have a shop build and tune the system you will be helpless and need to rely on them for any tweaks or upgraded. That cost more money down the road. Install and learn the system, trust me if you are a hands on guy you'll love it.
Ditto.

I have MS2 and EDIS too. Since I already had a Carrera 3.2, it only cost about ~$1500 to convert.
Old 12-26-2012, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by equality72521 View Post
I'm going to assume this is a poor attempt at humor. I have been reading the pelican forums for over 6 years and counting so I know how to search. I was hoping some people with first hand experience could chime in and save me hours of reading.
I actually think werk1 is trying to help, but the link seems to be messed up. I get the pp forum...?

I look forward to seeing the responses to the OP questions.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:08 PM
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What about Electromotive? I've used there TEC on several cars now and am now trying it on my first Porsche. My first attempt at EFI was with a Weber Redline 882 on a 450HP Ford V8. The TEC is light years ahead, but is the MS2 with EDIS that much better or is it more cost efficient given the application?
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:18 PM
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Cost efficient
Old 12-26-2012, 09:31 PM
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I started with MS 1 and immediately went MS Extra and now because I have additional requirements I just upgraded to MS 3 and love the versatility although the tuning has become a chore because my MS Extra tune didn't really transfer well. Recommend it for sure and you can go either coil on plug or EDIS with MS 3
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mreid View Post
What about Electromotive? I've used there TEC on several cars now and am now trying it on my first Porsche. My first attempt at EFI was with a Weber Redline 882 on a 450HP Ford V8. The TEC is light years ahead, but is the MS2 with EDIS that much better or is it more cost efficient given the application?
I don't think many systems are better in terms of quality material and very few if any have the adaptability and flexibility of MS. Not to mention there are quite a few of us here on the board and i'm sure someone could email you a tune if need be. For the money it's MS hands down and when you combine it with the simplicity of the Ford EDIS system you get factory reliability and replacement parts locally if any issues arise. I bought my EDIS used over 2 years ago, still chugging away and never had a spark blow out issue even at 20psi of boost.

Unless you really just want to spend more money
Old 12-27-2012, 10:24 AM
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My concern with EFI is re-sale-ability.
It seems that an converted car's target audience gets narrowed to the guys that hang out here at PP. Someone that can't or doesn't want to tune his own car won't want a car converted with MS. Then you have to consider how many professional wrenches have dealt with MS.
In a way, I think that a Motec conversion addresses these concerns better only because there are more shops that have dealt with Motec than MS. Motec is very popular with the track car crowd so it seems to reason that there are more shops that would be familiar with it than MS. The drawback is the high cost of a Motec conversion.
Having said that, I am pro-EFI but just a little hesitant to take the plunge for the reasons stated above.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:53 AM
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I suggest VEMS! more features, has more display (and apps) options and integrated hardware in box (e.g. Wide band, map sensor etc.) than many of the most expensive brands, most cost efficient setup. One of the most used box and software on internationally tuning/racing/drag forums, so getting help etc. on forums, comparing log-files etc. makes it easy.

locally in Europe it can be purchased for 1000$ with all you can through at it. A 930 1000$ setup could be: besides all general features among units then on top includes dual WB built in the box, 400kp map sensor built in, the list of features is endless but to name some of the most used e-boost control, boost per gear/rpm, sequentiel fuel/ignition (6 or 12 COP), 2 x knock control, 2 x WB, 2 x EGT, etc. no other ECU to my knowledge offer that many feature without being ridicules expensive. look up a price for a dual wide band unit hardware and map sensor and it would cost more alone than the complete vems unit. a ready made 6 cyl box loom can be purchased for about 350$ including all relays attached and connected. The price is not the strength in my opinion, it is the many display/dash options I like most. you can get a display/dash that is programable to display 2 output at the same time (e.g. AFR vs. EGT or RPM vs. temp or boost vs. gear etc.), it should fit in the dashboard, it has a button, push and you pick from 8x2 outputs (8x2 as I recall). Price 200$. Also big displays available, or android app. look on youtube for tutorials. there are also 930 vems conversion on this forum
Old 12-27-2012, 01:44 PM
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Thanks guys! I was leaning towards MS and EDIS but wanted to hear from you guys that have done installs for first hand feedback. Now time to start reading all of the MS documentation. I really didn't want to read ALL documentation for ALL systems so thanks a bunch.
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Mark 1979 930 Euro ***GONE AND DON'T MISS IT AT ALL***

"Worrying about depreciation on your car and keeping mileage down is like not ****ing your girlfriend so her next boyfriend finds her more appealing"
--clutch-monkey
Old 12-27-2012, 02:55 PM
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Edited due to misunderstanding on my part.
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Mark 1979 930 Euro ***GONE AND DON'T MISS IT AT ALL***

"Worrying about depreciation on your car and keeping mileage down is like not ****ing your girlfriend so her next boyfriend finds her more appealing"
--clutch-monkey

Last edited by equality72521; 12-28-2012 at 01:38 PM..
Old 12-27-2012, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
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Nah, I don't think so. You can hyperlink anything you want providing you start with the forum URL. For example, http://www.I'm Not Helping At All.com
I think he was trying to send you here, EFI University Electronic Fuel Injection Tuning :: Index

Maybe you should just figure it out yourself.
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911nut View Post
My concern with EFI is re-sale-ability.
It seems that an converted car's target audience gets narrowed to the guys that hang out here at PP. Someone that can't or doesn't want to tune his own car won't want a car converted with MS. Then you have to consider how many professional wrenches have dealt with MS.
In a way, I think that a Motec conversion addresses these concerns better only because there are more shops that have dealt with Motec than MS. Motec is very popular with the track car crowd so it seems to reason that there are more shops that would be familiar with it than MS. The drawback is the high cost of a Motec conversion.
Having said that, I am pro-EFI but just a little hesitant to take the plunge for the reasons stated above.
To touch on these points it seems while there is still a dedicated following of older guys wanting original cars I think the balance is changing and the younger crowd that likes these cars for the "look" and not the 30 year old technology actually expect modern upgrades. If you have a pristine low mileage 930 then by all means don't mod it, I believe that goes without saying. But for those of us with high mileage or "driven" 930's it's a different story. Also if these things are ever going to be worth big bucks then it's not going to matter what mods are done. Just the fact that it's a 930 will have great value.

Ultimately if you bought your 930 to sell it why do anything to it? Every penny you put into it is lost, then pile on insurance every year, tires, tune ups, engine rebuilds, gas etc... and you are better off giving Burnie Madoff a go with your money.
Old 12-27-2012, 03:28 PM
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