The Complete Engine Sealant Thread...

[quattrorunner]

keeping this info

[ALEX P]

Has anyone ever used Three bond 1207 in place of 1194?

[Tom F2]

So, what is the difference between the Threebond 1211 and other silicone sealers, such as the various flavors of Permatex? I use Permatex Ultra Gray on my Honda valve cover, and it seems to work great in conjunction with that rubber gasket. It's supposedly the same sealer that Honda sells for this purpose.

[Tippy]

Permatex requires two hours of something like 80% of torque to "shape" gasket formation, then you torque final 100% torque after two hours to properly use their product. Virtually no one does it correctly creating improper sealing.

The other thing is their product is just too thick which is opposite of the sealants required for the 911 engine.

[KTL]

Big thanks to everyone who contributed to the thread. Helps answer a lot of questions. For reference on the case I recently did for my '79, I did the left half.

>1194 on the case perimeter
>574 on the bearing saddles
>Dow 112 paste on the #8 o-ring, dry bore
>Dow 112 paste on the green thru bolt o-rings, installed next day one at a time.
>Crank seals both installed "dry"- a little bit of spit on them to ease going in the bore

I like the 1194. Goes on well and smushes out oh-so slightly. Nice.

My work was on an engine that was assaulted with 574. I hate the stuff for clean-up. It was on the case halves (probably both halves), on the cylinder base gaskets (what a mess), on cam towers to heads (probably both mating surfaces as well), on breather cover gasket, on cam end gaskets, on intermediate shaft cover, on oil cooler seals. Like I said, what a mess.

I find it surprising in the thread that a lot of people questioned the benefit of the 574 on the main saddles. The evidence is pretty obvious when you look at the mating surfaces of the saddles. That "hatched" grayish-black finish you see on them is not from machine tooling marks. That surface is fretting caused by the two surfaces rubbing back and forth against each other oh-so slightly.

The 574 helps prevent that. Next best solution is shuffle pins but who needs that on a stock rebuild or mildly warmed over engine?

[AlfonsoR]

Question about machine finish...

If you have your case split line machined for the sake of reclaiming the mains to standard line bore, what is the spec for the surface finish on the case perimeter and bearing saddles? Wondering if the surface finish spec is the same or different. Thanks.

[gregwils]

This thread was invaluable to me when I did my motor. However, I didn't question the benefit of 574 on the saddles, I applied a light coat. Sheer strength is very high, so should really limit lateral movement of the saddles.

Originally Posted by KTL

I find it surprising in the thread that a lot of people questioned the benefit of the 574 on the main saddles. The evidence is pretty obvious when you look at the mating surfaces of the saddles. That "hatched" grayish-black finish you see on them is not from machine tooling marks. That surface is fretting caused by the two surfaces rubbing back and forth against each other oh-so slightly.

The 574 helps prevent that. Next best solution is shuffle pins but who needs that on a stock rebuild or mildly warmed over engine?

[Spenny_b]

+1 for another useful thread.

I *thought* I was done with buying all the sealants and potions I need to re-build the bunch of cleaned up parts...but then stumbled across this thread and decided to increase the collection with some Three Bond.

Some info for the collective; I spoke with a guy called Jim at Three Bond UK a couple of times today, and the products mentioned in the thread have been superseded a little:

1104 -> 1194 (which has been documented) but is now 1184

1211 is superseded by 1215

By phoning around a couple of Three Bond distributors over here, I have managed to find a tube of both 1194 and 1211 - probably some of the last remaining ones - as I'm now absolutely paranoid about going "off-piste" from Henry's list

BTW - another thumbs-up and thanks to Henry for his continued input

I haven't got the Dow Corning 55 or 111 for the case through bolt o-rings; I ordered this from RS Components some weeks ago, before reading about Dow products:

Silicone Grease

Reckon this will be ok?

Cheers guys
Spencer.

[Eagledriver]

Yes, any silicon grease is fine.

-Andy

[Spenny_b]

Good man, cheers Andy

[dfink]

Hylomar is still working just fine on mine. Just wonder how many engines out there have nice little 574 spacers on the bearing caps from not getting that engine assembled and torqued in under 20 minutes. They do rev nicer that way with all the reduced bearing friction.

[Lapkritis]

Good thread here for info... bumping it up as I'm going through a top-end rebuild and sealant shopping.

[dfink]

Best lube I have found for anything rubber was called Archer Professional Gel Lube with teflon. It was from radio shack. I ran out and couldn't find it anyplace then I ran across it at Harbor Freight. It is now called Super Lube Professional gel lube with teflon.
I used it on all the o-rings during assembly. Recently took a case back apart and every one of the through bolt orings were in one piece. Works very nice on the oil return tubes and is the greatest thing ever for getting the rear spring plates to go into the torsion tube. You can literally just push them in. The stuff kind of drys up and the rubber takes a set just like it should.

[AlfonsoR]

Originally Posted by dfink

Just wonder how many engines out there have nice little 574 spacers on the bearing caps from not getting that engine assembled and torqued in under 20 minutes. They do rev nicer that way with all the reduced bearing friction.

That's what I'm afraid of. But then, didn't Porsche use something like 574 on the 964 and 993 engines?

[WERK I]

Really? 20 minutes to marry the case halves together is too short? Are you guys Union workers or what?
With the proper prep work, 20 minutes is PLENTY of time. Rehearse the routine, make sure everything is organized, within arm's reach and you'll do fine.

[efhughes3]

Originally Posted by WERK I

Really? 20 minutes to marry the case halves together is too short? Are you guys Union workers or what?
With the proper prep work, 20 minutes is PLENTY of time. Rehearse the routine, make sure everything is organized, within arm's reach and you'll do fine.

No kidding-that is exactly what I did. It went together quickly and efficiently.

[Cupcar]

Originally Posted by WERK I

... Using the green viton o-rings was a much better solution. Has anyone ever tried torquing everything down without the o-rings and once everything has cured, redo the thru-bolts one at a time with the viton o-rings?

Yes, I do that with the through bolts. For 993 RS and GT3 engines one has to install the lower bolts with the central O ring and leave them in place with the seal ring installed to begin with. I think this minimizes spinning of the O rings and potential damage. I also use the factory tools to pass the seals over the thread and to tap them in place.

Porsche recommends and sells Dreibond 1209 (3 bond) part number 000.043.203.73 now as case sealant, I didn't see that mentioned here, has anyone used this?

[Trophy]

Hey Ciupcar, Interested in this response as well. From what I understand 1209 is a clear sealant rather than the red/orange etc of the others. Being clear, is it harder to see if you have a good coating on the mating surfaces?

I am about to start putting my engine together soon and have been reading this thread with great interest.

993 Specific question, are the techniques listed here (Thanks everyone) suitable for all 911 engines including 993's? I saw a list on the previous page from Henry that listed all the sealants and all the sealing surfaces (inc Cam towers, chain housings etc) are these also relevant to a 993 build.

Thanks again everyone, fantastic thread.

[Cupcar]

1209 is clear and one can see the ooze from the joints just fine.

993 sealant strategy is same as earlier cars except the joints where the 993 uses rubber seals at the camshaft and chain housing covers.

Here, I am not sure if it is best to use Dow 111 only or to use some kind of sealant where the gaskets plug into the covers - not where the gaskets meet their opposite mating surface.

The magnesium chain housings need to be free of corrosion and flat, if not a surface grind using emery on glass seems to work fine. Be careful here not to remove any more than necessary particularly where cover goes to crankcase.

[Henry Schmidt]

The problem I have with Three Bond 1200 products as a case sealant is that they are Silicone based sealants and as such produce a flexible bead on the inside of the case.
If/when that bead encounters engine vibration and/or fluid dynamics of whirling engine oil the bead breaks loose and ends up as worms in the oil supply blocking oil passages like oil squirters, cam pray bar and bearing supply holes.
The 1100 products are synthetic rubber based sealants that have less of a propensity for beading and the beads seem the resist break away better.