First time engine removal questions - Page 4

fred cook · fred cook's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by keynsham1

I have just emailed Pelican to see if they will ever have these tools, otherwise I will be in touch! Thanks for the offer. You say 'one of these'. are you talking about both socket and crows foot or only one of the tools?

What I have is the 46mm Crows Foot socket. It came with a bunch of tools that I bought from another PP member a couple of years ago. When I disassembled my engine, I used the Crows Foot socket with an air wrench to loosen the cam nuts. If you haven't removed the tensioners yet, the chains will keep the cams from slipping. The cams that I put back in the engine are a set of 964 cams that use the small center bolt and washer so I don't think I will need it again.

keynsham1 · 08-24-2013, 01:21 PM

Good news! Pelican have confirmed that both camshaft tools are in the mail to me! I have been doing bits and bobs but I really need to get the heads off of my engine and get on with the stud replacement. I should have more to report in a couple of weeks. I have had time to assess my parts requirements though. This has led me to ordering all sorts of 'nice' parts such as turbo valve covers, stainless steel replacement fasteners for tin-work etc! The cost is rising by the minute, but it is going to be worth it at the end.

keynsham1 · 09-11-2013, 01:33 AM

Better news!! I am now the proud owner of tools P202 and P203.

This may not seem that exciting to some, but I have waited since July 15th for these to be delivered.

This weekend I will attempt the camshaft nut removal....watch this space!!

keynsham1 · 09-14-2013, 02:02 PM

Did a bit of work refurbishing my compressor this evening so I can use air tools, soda blasting etc. Just before packing up I decided to try my new Pelican supplied sockets on one of the camshaft nuts....

Easy! With two 18" breaker bars, it simply gave no resistance. My engine has never been apart before and so was last assembled at the factory. I suspect there is little or no threadlock making the task much simpler. I plan to see if I can get as far as one side head removal tomorrow morning.

dtw · 09-14-2013, 07:50 PM

Definitely no threadlocker on cam hardware.

fred cook · fred cook's Garage

Be certain to bag parts according to their location or use. Makes reassembly much easier! Also, if you line up the parts bags (I use zip loc bags) in order of disassembly it will help you to reassemble in the correct order. Good luck!

keynsham1 · 09-15-2013, 11:41 AM

So today I have had some fun! I have managed to remove the dreaded 46mm nut, the timing chain box, Cam box and heads, and barrels on one side only of my engine.

The camchain box came away with little trouble. The biggest problem was getting the woodruff key out of the camshaft itself. Why is it books always just say 'remove the woodruff key and...' not 'attempt to remove the woodruff key, hit it a bit harder, have a coffee, swear a little, try again etc.etc'.

Anyway it all came apart eventually. I rotated the engine to get at the side for dismantling and then spent ten minutes clearing residual oil spills from the garage floor.

Heads and cam box came off easily enough. It was apparent that there was a lot of oil around the heads at either end. This is where two of my studs have snapped so I can only assume that the lack of clamping leads to a path for oil escaping up the stud holes.
The head sealing ring (head gasket?) on No.3 had a crack in it and might have been leaking although there are no obvious signs.

Pistons and barrels are generally in excellent condition, but a little grubby.

All the valves look to be good prior to head disassembly. The motor has only done 74K miles so it should all be in good nick really. Note the oily corners where the studs had failed.

Tinware all OK except for the piece at the rear (clutch end) of the engine, which has rusted and virtually disintegrated. That part will need replacing, but the rest will look good after a clean and repaint.

Last picture shows where I am now. I have three lower studs snapped off on this side of the engine. the two end ones are only a few millimetres from the case so are going to be nasty. The third from the left has snapped level with the top of the barrel. All lower studs show signs of corrosion and pitting damage.

Having read Waynes book on engine rebuilds I had assumed that I would have Alusil bores and not Nikasil, as the Alusil are much more common. I had planned to remove barrels and pistons without removing one from the other so I could simply refit later.

I did not succeed here however and managed to pull No.3 off its piston. There is not much room for error if you want to get the piston pins out without the rings coming out of the barrel. Anyway, after a quick check, I have Mahle barrels with magnetic bores, and therefore Nikasil barrels. This is good but leaves me now to decide whether to hone the bores and fit new rings or just reassemble as before. The engine ran perfectly, burnt no oil and all rings are intact with no signs of wear or any other marks to the bores or pistons. Maybe I need to dismantle the other side before I make a decision!

So does anyone know a good way to remove a very short Dilivar stud from an aluminium crank case without using a professional?

keynsham1 · 09-16-2013, 10:04 PM

Last night I took out four of the six lower studs on one side of the engine. Three were intact and on was broken about a third of the way down. I was able to unscrew them using a stud extractor. I didn't use any heat. Once the initial crack of the Loctite was over, they unscrewed quite easily. I now have two left on this side which protrude about 3mm from the case. I cannot get hold of them with any tools and even after filing flats on the sides of one, vice grips still wouldn't budge it. I am going to have to file them flat and drill them out. I am not looking forwards to this as it is not something I have had great success with in the past.

Harvs11 · Harvs11's Garage

You're making good progress. Those short studs look like they will be difficult. I would rather get a pro with experience to remove them rather than make a mess of the block if it doesn't go right.

EDM might be the best option here. Do a search of your local area for a portable service which can be done in your garage.

I'm watching with interest. Good luck.

yelcab1 · 09-17-2013, 03:43 AM

a currently very active thread in this same forum has to do with removing a broken stud. You might want to read that first before drilling. TIG welding has something to do with it.

NEWFIE 69 911E · 09-17-2013, 05:07 PM

Excellent progress - well done!

How do the head-to-cylinder sealing surfaces look? Any damage from exhaust leak and/or head slap? If so, fly-cutting may be required.

docrodg · 09-18-2013, 03:27 AM

Great progress! The cylinder bores look good (still see crosshatch). Of course, the best is to check everything.

If you cannot find EDM service in Bristol find a really good machinist, they can handle it on a good vertical mill with careful setup - be sure they know that it is loctited so they can heat it while machining. If mag case and case savers not in it then of course they can just set up for drilling the case savers.

Cleaning is the monster job but you already mentioned soda blasting so you oughta get it looking great. I found that after blasting and rinsing a part a spritz of vinegar from a spray bottle would tell me if I missed any and I could rinse again. There are some rather difficult nooks and crannies that it can hold on to rather tenaciously.

keynsham1 · 09-25-2013, 12:39 PM

Slowly but surely, the work progresses. I have had no luck so far trying to remove the two broken cylinder head studs I have which are only protruding from the casing by a few millimetres. I have ordered the small Dremmel cutting tool that has been used with success in another thread and will be trying that soon.

Meantime I have begun working on the heads and cambox already removed.
It all looks good but is very oily.

Below you can see where oil has leaked from the end of the rocker shaft over time. I have the rocker shaft seals to fit when I reassemble them. £3 each for a flat round rubber seal! A real con I think. They should be pennies! Still, we are all stupid enough to pay for them (me included), so we will continue to be ripped off.

The heads came off the cambox with no trouble.

On first inspection all looks good. None of the valves show any obvious signs of wear. The white deposit on the exhaust valve apparently comes from unleaded fuel and these buildups can be huge.

Below is a picture of the exhaust valve port from a a 1970 Rover 3500S P6 I restored. This build up blocked a large section of the port.

I have removed the two valves from Cylinder head number 1 and was surprised to find excessive wear in the exhaust valve guide. The top edge of the guide is a knife edge and the valve moves around 0.060" sideways just before it seats. The engine has only done 74K miles so I find this very surprising. The inlet shows little wear. Needless to say I am not going to bother taking the other two apart. All three will be on their way to my local repair shop for new guides to be fitted. The valves look fine so I will be reusing them unless advised otherwise.

docrodg · 09-25-2013, 01:40 PM

Wow, a lot of leaking oil and wear on the guide. Think they may be connected?

zelrik911 · zelrik911's Garage

With that unusual wear on your exhaust valve guides & rocker shafts, I would be suspicious that the indicated mileage is not correct.

timmy2 · timmy2's Garage

Last picture he posted was of a different engine guys. Looks like his valves are still installed in the heads...

Good progress on your tear down. I don't envy you on the head studs. I had just enough left on 2 of them to get an extractor on them.

Soon you will be here, bagged tagged cleaned and lined up for assembly.

keynsham1 · 09-25-2013, 10:51 PM

The last picture is indeed of a different engine. I have removed only the two valves from cylinder number 1 and found valve guide wear. I haven't posted a picture but might do later today. The mileage is correct as I know all the previous owners from new and the complete history of the car. I don't believe the engine has ever been out before as there are no signs to show it.

keynsham1 · 09-26-2013, 11:02 AM

Below are a few pictures that show my rather strange exhaust valve guide wear.

It is very apparent that the inlet guide has a good wall thickness but the exhaust valve guide is almost knife edged!

You can see when the valve is in place, the huge gap. Surprisingly, the valve seats are in good condition and perfectly round. Heads 1, 2, and 3 are going in tomorrow for new guides!

The inlet and exhaust guides are the same part according to my parts catalogue. I did wonder if this was actually a design feature!

nonthaburi2000 · 09-26-2013, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keynsham1

None of the above ideas have worked. The stud is corroded into the hole and will not budge. I have tried heat, penetrating oil, shaking it about, and everything else I can think of. It will not come apart and I need it apart! The gearbox is completely free from the other studs and dowels apart from this one. It has been under the car for 36 years so a with steel stud in an unprotected aluminium hole it is not difficult to imagine corrosion setting in!

Just out of interest to Lapkritis, why is this a bad idea, you don't say? I agree is is not the ideal solution but I can't see why it will not work. All I will be left with is a slight gap about two inches long between the bell housing and the engine casing which I can fill with a bonded shim to allow clamp up. This isn't a sealing surface so this repair will work fine.

did you try vibrating the stud ?

or tighten it up before trying to take it apart

keynsham1 · 09-26-2013, 01:02 PM

I tried pretty much everything. It is still in the gearbox, which is sat on a shelf as a 'to do later' job! I thought I would be able to remove the remaining part with a drift, but it just feels like it has become part of the casing. I will drill it out eventually I expect.