Why I don't Fly, The List Keeps Growing...

[fintstone]

It is harder to get into my building at work (even worse in many I visit) than through airport security.

You guys who complain about TSA seeing your junk in the body scanners. They fielded the backscatter x-ray machines in 2012 and started getting rid of them the same year...finishing in 2013. Most full body scanners used now (millimeter-wave scanner), create a generic outline, with suspicious areas highlighted. If it detects nothing suspicious, the word "OK" appears on the display with no image at all. They do not have the capability to store any images (all images are deleted automatically after you pass through).

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by KevinTodd

+1

I fly almost non-stop, and truth be told, its the moronic public that creates every single issue....the slow-walkers, the entitled, the generally stupid, and there are alot of them. They can't get out of their own way---can't or simply won't plan ahead, and just like the left-lane police, they are the ones mucking it up for everyone else.

I take no issue in mowing down the tool-bags who literally stop on the moving sidewalks, who walk five abreast down every hallway, who have no idea that they cannot bring a big-gulp or a 32 ounce mocha latte through security--as if most of the folks I see with these can afford to consume that extra 2000 calories to begin with.....

I also have TSA Precheck, Global Entry and Clear--and that usually gets me ahead of some of the cattle-call.

Amen. Also Precheck, Global Entry, and Clear, all worth every penny.

Originally Posted by Tervuren

I'm editing this with a pre-fix,
you personally on account of what you do have a strong counter-influence in how you look out and see a crowd,
you get to see a crowd of passion, you get to see a crowd of love, you see a crowd of humanity.

It is the regular walking through a system where guilty is a base assumption over innocence. Others see a crowd of stupid, a crowd of obstacles, a herd of dumb animals lining up like cattle.

Look at comments about the guy who may hold the line up from not having flown before and not inherently knowing what to do.

A little compassion would be patient. Instead there is an uncompassionate herd through the check point.

Standing legs spread with my hands up through a scanner in the same posture as a guilty criminal being searched for arrest can't be good for the human mind on a regular basis.

Each time you go through you give up being human temporarily.

Now some pick it back up on the other side, but the continual laying down of what we consider basic human rights and dignity to transform into animals at the airport has got to wear on some of those folks that do it regularly.


I know it is a necessity for some folks, and some may handle it better than others. Still, if you can avoid stepping in to such a situation you are better off.

It has been a gradual increase of one thing at time, so frequent fliers may not be aware of just how harsh things feel to someone who is not a frequent flier and is confronted with the "new ways" in all their glory.

Sorry, but your ignorance of the rules is not an excuse. The internet, signage, billboards at the airport, the TSA agent repeating the same instructions over and over again, there is no excuse for not knowing what to do. It's like driving without bothering to learn the rules of the road. Flying is not something that you are entitled to, and if you are too lazy to learn the rules then it might not be a pleasant experience.

Originally Posted by legion

I used to love to fly and I used to do it with relative frequency, but I stopped when the scanners came out. The government has no right to inspect my naked body to prevent me from committing a crime. It's a perversion of due process and it is a presumption of guilt. The courts, in the ways that lawyers often twist things to mean the opposite of what they say, have basically ruled that you have no rights from the moment you step foot in an airport until the moment you leave the airport at your destination. Along the way, TSA agents may steal your belongings, they may call over coworkers to ogle your naked body, or the airline may have someone punch you in the face when they decide to give your seat to someone else. The way people get treated by airlines and the TSA is unconstitutional, immoral, and unethical, but it's for our safety--which is always the excuse given when violating our civil rights.

Imagine if you had to remove your shoes, have your bags inspected, strip naked (which is essentially what a body scanner does), and then be molested to do any other activity? No one would stand for these things if introduced all at once. But because they were done gradually, and for our safety, people blindly accept exactly the kind of warrantless searches and seizures our constitution is supposed to protect against.

The saddest part is that all of the violations airline passengers endure are largely just expensive and ineffective security theater. They do almost nothing to really improve safety other than reassuring those that don't think too hard about their loss of dignity and fooling casual criminals into thinking they will probably get caught--all the while punishing millions of otherwise innocent passengers along the way. There are security methods that are less expensive, less intrusive, preserve dignity and civil rights, and far more effective--but we don't do them, why? I have to conclude that "airline safety" was just an excuse for an unconstitutional power grab rather than an effort to really protect us.

Ogle your naked body. LOL and wow. Guess you don't attend concerts, courthouses, or major sporting events either? Based on your posts, I think I'm glad you've chosen to avoid flying.

[legion]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Ogle your naked body. LOL and wow. Guess you don't attend concerts, courthouses, or major sporting events either? Based on your posts, I think I'm glad you've chosen to avoid flying.

Courthouses and concerts use metal detectors, not body scanners with a monitor. Do you recall that when these scanners were introduced several TSA agents at one airport were found to have a "signal" to call others over to the monitor when someone attractive they wanted to see naked was in the scanner. At another airport, the TSA agents were found to be saving and trading images of naked passengers. But I guess that's okay, because it allegedly keeps us safe.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by legion

Courthouses and concerts use metal detectors, not body scanners with a monitor. Do you recall that when these scanners were introduced several TSA agents at one airport were found to have a "signal" to call others over to the monitor when someone attractive they wanted to see naked was in the scanner. At another airport, the TSA agents were found to be saving and trading images of naked passengers. But I guess that's okay, because it allegedly keeps us safe.

That is so 2012. Those scanners were in use less than a year.

[cairns]

Why not just put your shaving cream in your suitcase and check it in? Just take minimal essential items in your carry on bag. I don't know if aerosol cans are restricted articles?

I don't think you understand. The flight home was roughly 24 hours flying time....excluding connection....and I intended to shave and shower.

I do only take essentials in my carry on. But what's essential for a two hour flight and going half way across the world are two entirely different things- I brought a change of clothes too.

BTW small amounts of aerosol have always been allowed in carryons.

[Ayles]

Originally Posted by fintstone

That is so 2012. Those scanners were in use less than a year.

And maybe for a short time in 1982

[Seahawk]

The reason I hate to fly commercial is because of the pilots.

Not all the A Students are going to the airlines, folks.

[Don Ro]

Paul, your take on this.
.
I had the occasion to speak with B-52 pilots while in the AF...one told me about how stringent were the procedures, etc. Of course, I knew that.
Told me something about circuit breakers that were pulled in commercial airliners.
If the system was redundant, they'd fly anyway.
The military, not so.
.
This, as I recall, anyway.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Don Ro

I had the occasion to speak with B-52 pilots while in the AF...one told me about how stringent were the procedures, etc. Of course, I knew that.
Told me something about circuit breakers that were pulled in commercial airliners.
If the system was redundant, they'd fly anyway.

I would be very surprised if that were true. I know a lot of airline pilots that are aging out and none of them has related anything remotely like that - redundancy means the system is on the critical safety path. I'm not flying with ANY popped circuit breaker! Nor are they. They get to the accident first, btw.

My comment was more related to the devolution of pilots in the airliner food chain and how it has impacted great people coming in the door.

That topic is very lively among my commercial pilot friends, all of them senior Captains with big carriers.

[Don Ro]

I was of the understanding that "redundant" meant a back up system
What did/do I know?
.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Norm K

I never go through the scanners and I never get patted down. Without fail, it's a stroll through the metal detector, then off to grab my bags from the xray line.

_

So they violate there own protocols every single time with you, interesting.

Originally Posted by legion

The saddest part is that all of the violations airline passengers endure are largely just expensive and ineffective security theater.

This also is troubling to me.

Originally Posted by fintstone

It is harder to get into my building at work (even worse in many I visit) than through airport security.

Too bad, totally irrelevant, but really too bad for you.

Shame the powers that be decided to go this way, rather than setting it up like the Israelis do so it might actually have a chance to be effective.

[sammyg2]

I have a TWIC transportation worker's identification card (TWIC).
It's a federal id issued through Dept of homeland security. At the time it was mandatory to have one in order to work in or near the ports.
In 5 years no one ever asked to see it. So I let it expire and didn't renew.
Now I'm hearing it does the same as that TSA pre-check thingy ..?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Don Ro

Paul, your take on this.
.
I had the occasion to speak with B-52 pilots while in the AF...one told me about how stringent were the procedures, etc. Of course, I knew that.
Told me something about circuit breakers that were pulled in commercial airliners.
If the system was redundant, they'd fly anyway.
The military, not so.
.
This, as I recall, anyway.

All commercial aircraft have a MEL, Minimum Equipment List. It defines the stuff that has to be working correctly for the airplane to dispatch with passengers. I can assure you that there are no critical aircraft systems left off of that list. Stuff that can be INOP are items like a passenger seatback display, coffee maker, seatbelt or armrest in an unoccupied seat, you get the idea. It's very stringent, not something they take lightly as it is part of the FAA/EASA certification basis.

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I would be very surprised if that were true. I know a lot of airline pilots that are aging out and none of them has related anything remotely like that - redundancy means the system is on the critical safety path. I'm not flying with ANY popped circuit breaker! Nor are they. They get to the accident first, btw.

My comment was more related to the devolution of pilots in the airliner food chain and how it has impacted great people coming in the door.

That topic is very lively among my commercial pilot friends, all of them senior Captains with big carriers.

Funny, I read an industry article about 30 minutes ago about the current and looming pilot shortage. The biggest issue they noted was the devaluation of airline pilot as a career from the standpoint of society. Today it's a position of limited prestige that requires expensive schooling often at the student's expense, years of toiling at a regional airline for little pay, and then years of working your way up at a major airline before it really pays off. The military is still a pipeline but they are also facing a shortage of pilots, and international carriers are throwing big money at American pilots to entice them overseas.

Originally Posted by Don Ro

I was of the understanding that "redundant" meant a back up system
What did/do I know?
.

Any aircraft system critical to flight will have redundancies built in. Some are triple or quadruple redundant. Then they may have a backup system that also has redundancies. Then all of them are tested to failure and beyond to insure that they actually offer the safety and reliability required. One of many reasons that airplanes are so expensive.

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

The reason I hate to fly commercial is because of the pilots.

Not all the A Students are going to the airlines, folks.

My buddy who was an American pilot flew for uncle back in the 70's. F-111. Truth, he wasn't an A student...graduated from a teacher's college where he was also ROTC. But then, since grade school..."I wanna be a jet pilot." Remember our road trips...supurb eyesight...he could read a freeway exit sign long before I could. About 5'8", an athletic body...swim team, track, ran the 100 yard dash in 10 flat..after football knee surgery 60's style. So yeah, kind of born to be a pilot...just what the Air Force liked physically and mentally.

He offered us a "comped" flight to visit he & his wife..I gave him my standard response...no desire to be cooped up in an aluminum tube for hours with hundreds of strangers. I have no fear of flying, have done it several times. But found the whole process to be a royal pain in the donkey...and that was before 9-11-01.

[Don Ro]

When I took my first commercial flight (late 60's) I showered, shaved, dressed nicely.
Nowadays, passengers look (and stink) like they rolled out of bed and onto the plane.
Phooey!!!

[vash]

i RARELY fly for work. i will this winter some.

but for the most part, if i am getting on a plane it is to get to somewhere fun. having said that, i love it all.

the airport, the lines..it all adds to the anticipation of good things coming. some TSA agent wants to grab my junk..whatever. safety first i suppose. btw, my junk has never been grabbed. i have had my bags searched, that swab done looking for powder residue..it's all good. afterwards, i will be somewhere hopefully seeing something for the first time..in wonder.

i never sleep on the plane. no matter how long the flight. i am up, wearing headphones, watching movies. i will go and do situps and pushups in that bigger area..no DVT's for me. i love it.

sucks SEAHAWK offering a peek behind the pilot curtain..we dont have the A-team..great

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by vash

sucks SEAHAWK offering a peek behind the pilot curtain..we dont have the A-team..great

You still do, for a little bit

When I was nearing my end of obligated service as a Navy pilot and working through career options, I considered the airline route.

What ended any thought of me flying high were two long flights in a P-3 Orion where I got some significant left seat time.

F me running I was as bored as a Housewife from Omaha in about ten minutes.

Later, after I decided to stay with Uncle, as the Chief Test Pilot at the Sikorsky helo factory, we were delivering Blackhawks to the Army in Germany...four at a time in the back of C-5's and we had to accompany them and then fly the acceptance flights in Germany.

I got to ride in the amazing flight deck, complete with bunk rooms, etc., on four translants.

If boredom was music, those flights were Cher.

[speeder]

One of my cousins who was a Navy pilot flies for United. He was a helicopter pilot and I’m sure that the job bores the nuts off of him but he has six kids including one w cancer, so he definitely needs the paycheck. He supplements it w some private contractor work over in the ME flying spy planes which is slightly more interesting but incredibly boring on the ground, they absolutely never leave the fortified base under any circumstances.

I’ve always heard that going from fighter jets to being a commercial pilot is like going from being an F1 driver to driving a Greyhound bus.

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I fly frequently and never have an issue. But I'm also aware of the rules, respect the rules, don't consider myself to be above the rules, and treat TSA and police with respect even if they are grumpy. Most of these cases are people behaving badly who want to blame someone else. Typically there's plenty of blame on both sides, because God knows the TSA isn't perfect.

This.

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by speeder

One of my cousins who was a Navy pilot flies for United. He was a helicopter pilot and I’m sure that the job bores the nuts off of him but he has six kids including one w cancer, so he definitely needs the paycheck. He supplements it w some private contractor work over in the ME flying spy planes which is slightly more interesting but incredibly boring on the ground, they absolutely never leave the fortified base under any circumstances.

I’ve always heard that going from fighter jets to being a commercial pilot is like going from being an F1 driver to driving a Greyhound bus.

Exactly what my buddy said he did: Bus driving for American airlines. I call him Lucky. His scheduled plane on 9-11-01 was a 737 from Boston to L.A. Was getting into his uniform when the hotel room phone rang. Pure luck of the draw...