Another brand new 737 Max crashes

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by URY914

Seems like pilots in third world countries are like the drivers of cars in third world countries.

I have a lot of stories.

The CNO of the Saudi Navy was particularly interested in the UAS I was developing because he said: "We don't grow pilots very well - and when we do they jump to the airlines at the first opportunity..."

I was in Riyadh at the time briefing my programs for their Naval upgrade initiatives.

I still have nightmares about the UAE Huey pilots getting deck qual'ed when I was an Airboss

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I have a lot of stories.

The CNO of the Saudi Navy was particularly interested in the UAS I was developing because he said: "We don't grow pilots very well - and when we do they jump to the airlines at the first opportunity..."

I was in Riyadh at the time briefing my programs for their Naval upgrade initiatives.

I still have nightmares about the UAE Huey pilots getting deck qual'ed when I was an Airboss

One of the local PCA members was an instructor for the AWACS aircraft at Tinker AFB. He had a Saudi prince as a student. My buddy said the prince was the stereotype prince. All his life he had been given everything without working for it. They prince was incompetent and could not really pass the course. My friend failed the prince. Pressure came from the state department to pass the prince regardless. He refused, to sign his name to a passing grad for the prince. He was "asked" to retire, and he did. He said that prince should never be allowed in any cockpit except a rubber raft at a pool.

[Neilk]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I tend to agree with JR. I don’t think it’s coincidental that both crashes have been in the hands of airlines operating out of countries with questionable safety histories. BUT, it still raises some very serious questions that need to be answered ASAP. Particularly considering that both crashes seem to have occurred in the same phase of flight and under similar conditions.

I read that there were some 350 in service, so it's odd that this is only occurring in 3rd world countries. Now if this were to happen in Europe or here, I would be concerned.

Didn't the A320 have similar issues when it was first introduced?

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by madcorgi

Horrifying and scary that now two of these birds have crashed. This look at first to be pretty similar to the Lion Air one, but I thought they had figured out a fix for that.

I left Boeing many years ago after 12 great years, and I still have enormous pride in the people and products associated with that place. This is absolutely devastating to the people who work there, and there will be a lot of folks working around the clock to figure this mess out. I wish them well.

Having left just two years ago, I still have a lot of friends there. I spoke with a couple of them last night. "Devastated", or "heartbroken" does not begin to describe their mood. Their feeling of responsibility, in some way (even if it proves they are not), are very deep and very real. The shock wave this is sending through the company can only be appreciated by guys who have had the privilege to work with these fine people.

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I have presided over two fatal military accidents...best to let the professionals do their job.

Even video is often a false narrative.

Speculation at this time is ill advised.

My experiences, of course, did not include fatal accidents. There had to be something left to repair for us to be called. Even at that, with some of the more severe damage we repaired, the speculation from outside the industry, from the news, self-proclained internet "experts", google happy little cretins, and what not never proved to be accurate or helpful in the least. It's time for everyone to just take a step back and let the real professionals get to the bottom of this.

Here are some pretty level-headed comments from a guy with a good deal of experience:

“All we know is this plane hit the ground and right before that, the radio transmission is they wanted to return to the field," said Aviation analyst John Nance, former airline pilot and U.S. Air Force Lieutenant Colonel. "And there was no explanation of why."

“When you look at these two accidents, they are wildly dissimilar, even though we know very little about this one at this point," Nance said. "In the first accident, Lion Air, the pilots were inadequately trained."

He added, “the accident at Lion Air -- basically two switches that every guy should know how to sweep off and these guys did not have the training that bears no resemblance to what happened here."

At this point, Nance says he doesn’t see any red flags about this particular type of plane the MAX 8.

“But, we have to watch as the accident investigation develops because maybe something will show up. I don’t see any earmarks of a failure of the airplane at this point,” said Nance.

[URY914]

So where does someplace like Ethiopian Airlines get their pilots? And please don't tell me retired Ethiopian Air Force pilots.

[flipper35]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

My first thought was that anti-stall system. One of my "friends of a friend" is an airline pilot, flying the 737 Max. He said they were cruising along in level flight, all trimmed out and just normal flight when the noise started to point down because of the anti-stall system. He had read the manuals, and instantly knew, pull the breaker for that system. Bam, the airplane was acting normal. He of course wrote up the incident. He also said his co-pilot was a "buy the book" guy and the procedure at the time was not to pull the breaker. This was before the first crash. Now the procedure it to pull the breaker, but at the if his time his co-pilot had been in command, they would not have pulled the breaker.

On all the 737 variants the procedure for any runaway trim issue, which the MAX anti-stall system uses, is to pull the breaker. Not that the pilots always know that it uses the trim.

I am sure in time we will find out what the problem was in this case.

[Baz]

Could be an opportunity coming up to pick up some Boeing stock at an advantageous price.

Other than that - I have nothing to add......except sadness of the lost souls......

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I have a lot of stories.

The CNO of the Saudi Navy was particularly interested in the UAS I was developing because he said: "We don't grow pilots very well - and when we do they jump to the airlines at the first opportunity..."

I was in Riyadh at the time briefing my programs for their Naval upgrade initiatives.

I still have nightmares about the UAE Huey pilots getting deck qual'ed when I was an Airboss

Do helicopters have a reverse on them?

Just asking because the Arabs in Dearborn, MI like to drive cars 30 mph backwards down residential streets. It's insane what they do with a car, and something in the air is inconceivable to me.

EDIT:
Has anyone asked the ground crew why the plane fell out of the air?

They seem to know everything, just ask one of them.

EDIT-2:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

My experiences, of course, did not include fatal accidents. There had to be something left to repair for us to be called. Even at that, with some of the more severe damage we repaired, the speculation from outside the industry, from the news, self-proclained internet "experts", google happy little cretins, and what not never proved to be accurate or helpful in the least..........

EDIT-3:
Prayers answered.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by URY914

So where does someplace like Ethiopian Airlines get their pilots? And please don't tell me retired Ethiopian Air Force pilots.

There's a world wide shortage of pilots so I'm guessing there are "allowances" made to keep planes in the sky.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by kach22i

EDIT:
Has anyone asked the ground crew why the plane fell out of the air?

They seem to know everything, just ask one of them.

Don't be an ******* in this thread, too.

[sc_rufctr]

That's George's style. He's a racist turd & doesn't know when to shut up.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by javadog

Don't be an ******* in this thread, too.

Same to you.

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

That's George's style. He's a racist turd & doesn't know when to shut up.

And an idiot just put his turd in the punch bowl.

People died, show some class.

[sc_rufctr]

George talking about class... lol

[Seahawk]

Accident investigations are fascinating, ad hoc campaigns...talent brought together to solve a problem.

When I was at the Sikorsky Factory, a CH-53E was doing what is called a "Compass Rose": High, 250' agl hover, doing pedal turns and comparing the aircraft electronic compass read out against a calibrated compass positioned above the factory. I did hundreds of them in H-60's.

Something happened and the 53E ate itself up, literally, killing all four on board. Video and synopsis here:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=56026

I was geobatching at the time and was a roommate of one of the pilots that was killed.

We figured it out and prevented further issues, one engineer from Cherry Point in particular was instrumental in the investigation - she was incredible.

So, mourn, think, let the smart folks figure it out and make the necessary changes to either procedures or hardware or both.

[Eric 951]

Originally Posted by kach22i

I'm not an expert on this... and know how to use Google. .

Your mantra.

[techman1]

Prayers for all involved, at this point, is all most of us can do.

Hopefully the root cause can be found, and over come with repair and training.

I say training, because ..stuff happens. Read about the Gimli Glider. Teaser..can a large jet lose engines, glide to a safe landing? Proper training....

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Speculation at this time is ill advised.

Speculation is what we are best at.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Agree with all who have posted to give this time, I know a few who have worked accident investigation and it is a laborious task that takes months.

Interesting development on this story, China has halted operation of the Max 8 with their airlines pending the results of an investigation. Probably based more on perception and politics than anything else, but still interesting.

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Accident investigations are fascinating, ad hoc campaigns...talent brought together to solve a problem.

When I was at the Sikorsky Factory, a CH-53E was doing what is called a "Compass Rose": High, 250' agl hover, doing pedal turns and comparing the aircraft electronic compass read out against a calibrated compass positioned above the factory. I did hundreds of them in H-60's.

Something happened and the 53E ate itself up, literally, killing all four on board. Video and synopsis here:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=56026

I was geobatching at the time and was a roommate of one of the pilots that was killed.

We figured it out and prevented further issues, one engineer from Cherry Point in particular was instrumental in the investigation - she was incredible.

So, mourn, think, let the smart folks figure it out and make the necessary changes to either procedures or hardware or both.

Is the CH53 as awful as it is depicted? There is a movie coming out called "Who Killed Lt Van Dorn?" that suggests it's a real death trap.

[Chocaholic]

And I heard this morning that American announced they have great confidence in that plane and were not planning to ground them. Hmmm.