Adams Probe 16 Restoration Project...

[tcora]

Drum brakes at all 4 corners? Memories...

[Wayne 962]

Okay, so for 20+ years I wrote books and answered tech questions and forums posts. Today is one of the days when I need to reach out to this excellent community and ask everyone for their advice. I've literally been staring at this for months now, not sure what exactly to do. Looking for insight and hints. This one is not easy - probably the toughest issue I've ever faced working on a particular car. How do you like that lead up! Okay here's the situation.

So you may recall my recent purchase of the Probe 16:
Wayne bought a new car! Who can guess what?

And the recent threads documenting the restoration:
Adams Probe 16 Restoration Project...

For those of you who don't know what this is, here's a link to the Wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probe_16

Anyways, so they only made three of these cars. The other two are in the UK. One has been "restored" - not back to super-originality, but not terrible either. This one that I have here (AB/3) is the most original of all of them. One of the curiosities of the car is the fact that the chassis is manufactured out of wood (ash wood, I believe). This creates a very unusual set of issues for working on the car (coupled with the fact that there were only three made). I can talk for hours about how cool this design and this car is, but I'll focus on the problem at hand - the gas tanks.

The gas tanks on this car are longitudinal - they run the length of the car. There are two of them, basically embedded into the door sills. There are two fuel pumps, and a switch to change between the tanks and the pumps - there is a union that joins both of the fuel lines after the two pumps. The cars (I believe) were assembled in the following fashion:

a) the wood frame was created
b) the gas tanks were placed / attached to the wooden frame
c) the fiberglass upper body was placed down over the wood / gas tanks
d) the fiberglass body was "glassed in" with the wood making one complete shell.

That's all fine and dandy, except that the gas tanks were uncoated steel - placed in a window sill. What could possibly go wrong. Yes, you guessed it - the window seals leaked and dripped water onto the tanks and they promptly rusted out - from the inside out. This arrangement is not dissimilar to the Porsche 904, which had/has a tubular frame that has a fiberglass body "glassed in" around it. This makes restoring the 904 a very expensive and detailed proposition, as the cars sometimes tend to rust and corrode from the inside out!

Anyways, this gas tank rusting out happened already, and the tanks were replaced with stainless steel ones (thank goodness!!!). I think they are stainless, they might be aluminum, I haven't really looked very, very closely at the actual metal. Either way, they aren't rusting and all is fine with the actual tanks.

Here is a photo that shows the approximate location of the gas tank on the left side of the car (the right side is the same):


To give you some context, one of the other Probe 16 cars (the one that was restore in the UK) had the same problem, and they had to cut the tanks out and John Brookes, writing a newsletter for the Marcos Owner's club or some similar organization printed them. Very useful for me to get perspective on what the job looks like. I think the phrase PIA is represented by this process. Here are some of those photos:



Here is a photo of one of the guys in the UK restoration shop cutting into the side of the car in order to access the gas tank:





Here they are with the tank removed - looks like they are cutting out some of the foam that surrounds the tank or cutting into the wood:



Another shot of the tank removed. It certainly looks like there's a pipe running down the bottom of the tank (yellow), but it's not - is the lower part of the fiberglass body.





Shot of the tank completely removed. This is on the driver's side, you can see there is a little square area cut out in the middle where the ignition switch and other switches go:





Here's a photo of the new replacement stainless steel tank. This is the view from the top of the tank - you can see the opening for the tank sender:





New tank installed. See the gas tank outlet on the lower right of the photo:

[Wayne 962]

Okay, so that's the background on the tanks and what's involved with them. I'm very lucky to have these photos on hand (I've reached out to John to see if he has more photos, but I haven't heard back from him).

So, what exactly is the problem? Here it is. The car hasn't been run in 37 years, and nearly all the rubber and gas lines in the car have deteriorated and are falling apart. So, for safety reasons, they need to be replaced. The trouble is, I cannot figure out how to access the bottom of the tank to replace the fuel line without cutting the whole chassis apart.

Here are some photos showing the problem in more detail:


Here's a gratuitous shot of the car while a lot of it has been taken apart (and carefully photographed and labeled:




Here's a shot of the right side tank with the opening for where the fuel level sender goes. It's a standard fuel level sender size so you can't stick your hand in there. I actually had to drill this hole out a tiny bit larger because I could not get the fuel sender out. The sender was obviously then installed into the new tank before it was all "sealed up" - it didn't quite line up with the hole 100% during the replacement process:




This photo shows the front of the tank, where the fuel filler is (there are two fuel fillers, one on each side):




This photo shows the left side (passenger) of the car. There is a spot for a fire extinguisher to go here, so there's this cutout here to make a large divot. You can see the foam that holds the tanks in, squeezing out the side. This is hard foam, similar to the type that you might spray inside of your house walls for insulation, and such:




There are two of these "access holes" on the top - two on each side of the car. I believe that these were there in order to spray the foam in that seals the tanks:




This is a whole that was drilled for a stereo speaker in the back. I'm not sure if the stereo was original or added later. From my experience rewiring much of the car, I believe that it was added at a later date, probably by Corky Laing, who was one of the previous owners of the car, and a rock musician. I'm pointing to one of the "foam access holes" that are on the car - this one is all the way in the back. I thought originally I might be able to remove all of this foam and access the fitting on the bottom, but subsequent measurements of the tank now lead me to believe that the top of the tank is simply right underneath my finger:




So, I took a tape measure and tried to figure out where the end of the tank was. I used a borescope to look inside the tank and they appear squarish, like the ones in the UK car. If I measured correctly, the end of the tank extends quite a bit past the speaker hole in the photo above. So, access through that small "foam access hole" seems unlikely:




The distance from the edge of the fuel tank sender to the end of the tank is about 18.5". So, as you can see, 18.5 inches goes way beyond the foam access hole inside of the speaker chamber:




On the right side, the gas tank has to have a large notch in it (large being like 12" long) in order to fit inside and allow for the area where the ignition and other switches go. These two photos show the left and right side of that:

[Wayne 962]

Okay, so here is the heart of the problem. This fuel line goes from the fuel pump and then disappears into the chassis. There is no access under the tanks, no panel to remove, no nothing that I can find. Perhaps I'm missing something - that's one of the points of me asking here. This fuel line disappears into a hole in the wood in the chassis:




Here you can see the fuel line that disappears into the chassis. This photo was taken from above, looking down into the engine compartment. The green arrow points to the fuel line as it enters the wooden part of the chassis:





On the right side of the car, there is a "trap door" panel there so that one could presumably access the exterior "roof switch" that is basically the "door lock" key to get into the car. Looking down through this shows a piece of wood and not much else:





Here's a shot from underneath the car showing the line going into the hole in the wood panel. You can see it's starting to deteriorate quite a bit:





Here's a close-up photo of that same line that is beginning to fall apart:





Here's a photo of the entire inner fender well. this is all wood and fiberglass all meshed together. My thoughts are to cut an access hole in the bottom of this and make a similar "trap door" to be able to access the bottom of the tank. Where to drill and how big and how to figure out where everything is - well that's some big questions:





Here's the left side fender. The connection to the tank is on the other side of this panel, presumably. I'm not even sure if this is wood, or fiberglass, or wood covered with fiberglass. Who knows? I started to peel off a bit on the bottom and then stopped. The green arrow shows just the tip of the fuel line sticking out as it enters on the right side:





Here's a close-up on the left side fender, right where I had the green arrow pointing in the previous photo.

[Wayne 962]

Okay, so I know that photos alone can be a bit difficult to decipher, so I just put all of this into a video as well:



-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Potential solutions? Well, I have none, but I have maybe a first step. I can perhaps do the following, let's start out with the bad ideas:

- I can test the line to see if it leaks. The line looks like crap, and it's really a bad idea to leave it in there. But the thought did cross my mind for a brief moment. I thought that maybe this fuel hose was some metal hose that was just rubber coated, but it's not. This is a bad idea.

- I thought about some how running a new line from somewhere more accessible, but then I would have to plug the old line (which is old and seems damaged), so that defeats the whole purpose too.

- I could simply not use one tank if one line is leaking and the other is fine. That is also a poor plan.


These ideas are better:

- Cut / disconnect the fuel hose on each side and then thread some pipe cleaner in there to see if I can feel where the line goes. Perhaps I can make it stick out into the tank so that i can confirm the location of the outlet hole. This would be done prior to poking any holes in the chassis.

- I can poke an exploratory hole in the fender well. Somewhere in this area:




I think that this is going to have to be the best option, and I will have to make a *ton* of measurements (like a surveyor) in order to figure out exactly where my hole should be drilled. It's too bad I don't have an ultrasound machine or some type of x-ray machine that could see through wood. I do have a "stud finder" for walls, but I don't see how that could possible be useful. I also have a stud finder magnet that is ultra powerful and can find metal through walls - maybe I will grab that from work and try that out - there might be a hose clamp that is right on the other side of the wood that the magnet will hang on to.

I suppose that if I make an "access panel" to get to the bottom of the tank, I can then reinforce it with steel. My big concern is cutting a hole in the wood chassis and weakening it a bit.

- I can try to cut the fuel line very close to where it enters the "bulkhead", then shove it in there and then stick my camera in there to see if I can see anything. This would screw me in case I needed to somehow thread that line back again, but I don't really see that happening.

I'm so glad that the tanks have already been replaced. At least we don't have to cut the entire car apart. I will send this post to the son of the guy who replaced these tanks - he's like 87 or so years old now, and may or may not remember this from 40 years ago. That's like me remembering what I got for Christmas when I was 8 - probably not going to happen. I'll also send this to the guys in the UK for advice.

Okay, I'm ready for some help and advice on this - I'm stuck. Thanks in advance!!!

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

I stuck the fiber optic camera down the roof access hatch, and I couldn't see any trace of the fuel line. I was looking as I wiggled the line - nothing. Just what appears to be a few small chunks of foam down there...

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Okay, back working on this. I started a new thread with my HUGE problem that I do not know how to solve: Wayne needs some serious HELP and ADVICE with this Probe 16!

Thanks,

Wayne

[ZOO]

I am certain you’ve considered it but is there any way to create a new tank and delivery system?

[javadog]

Can you not put a borescope into the tank through the fuel sender hose and see where the hose connects to the tank? Then, with the aid of some careful measurements, estimate the location on the bottom of the car where you can make your access hole?

[Mixed76]

Hi Wayne,

Consider a borescope in the tank to find the outlet. Metal detector might find the hose clamp at the tank end of the hose.

The tank looks like aluminum from here because of the whiteness of the welds and the straightness of the panels.

If the fuel outlet can be found, maybe it can be plugged from inside. Then put a top-mounted fuel pump. Assuming there is access, hose routing ok, etc.

Seems like the fuel tanks are vulnerable to almost any accident. Could you abandon the tanks in place/ fill with rigid foam and find a new location for a fuel tank?

Best,
Dan

Sent from my Nokia 7.1 using Tapatalk

[rusnak]

We were just mentioning the uses of an IR camera, such as the FLIR units. You might get realy good thermal images from one of them.

[DanielDudley]

Smaller alternate tank and fuel lines run from an alternate location. Easy.

Long shot idea; Open the tanks from the top around the fuel sender and insert fuel cells like a racecar. Run the hoses from the top of the sender opening. No going in through the outside body of the car. None of the surgery will show, and if that is plywood, just fix it like a boat, with epoxy and fiberglass if it is structural. That's why I get the big bucks. Very doable.

How original do you want it?

[unclebilly]

What diameter are these lines? They look pretty big in the initial photos.

Do you think you could push Tygon tubing or something similar through your lines (some of those bends do look tight).

If you did this, you could put in a in tank fuel pump which would allow for sufficient fuel delivery (pushing through the smaller diameter hose instead of trying to suck through it).

One of the best parts of fibreglass is that it is infinitely repairable. I would be be afraid to cut into it to make this repair but I would certainly replace the hoses with instrumentation tubing (stainless) as opposed to rubber.

This type of thing is pretty normal in boat repairs. Materials are the same too. A $30 endoscope from Amazon will be your friend here.

[jhynesrockmtn]

I have nothing very constructive to add other than I no longer think the two 914 tanks and fuel systems I just finished working on are a pain in the ass.

I ran a Zink Formula Vee for a number of years in vintage. The original tanks in the Zink C-4 were 2 side mounted tanks. For safety and other reasons most of these cars have had other tanks built over the years and relocated to behind the seat or other locations depending on the driver's size, etc. Mine was a single 3 gallon tank that was still side mounted with the battery opposite that to help with the balance. If you are just looking to run the car at shows and it won't go very far, perhaps at least a temp solution is a small custom tank located somewhere else while you figure out this rats nest of wood, etc.

What condition is the wood in? In some of the pics it looks pretty dark and dried out.

[Probe16]

Wayne, do not under estimate the memory of Dr. Clyde Kwok.
Although he may not have done the replacement of the gas tanks, he would have certainly supervised the removal and replacement.
I was told by him that he had replaced them with stainless steel.
Also to note, 2 years ago I had replaced the faulty roof switch with one that I picked up from Princess Auto/Harbor Freight. I can not recall if left any wires that were going to a complicated switch unattached. You will see them through the access hole.
Those 'odd'' square head screws are Robertson and used extensively in Canada.
They are much superior than slot or Phillips.
I can send you a 'bit' if you would like.
p.s.
did your man mail anything yet?

[88911coupe]

What about some sort of fuel bladder to insert into the old tank? The issue would still be how to plumb the bladder though.

[Prestallion]

Originally Posted by Wayne 962

It's too bad I don't have an ultrasound machine or some type of x-ray machine that could see through wood.

Is there anybody in your area that can do mobile nondestructive testing? They usually do ultrasonic and X-ray inspections of industrial equipment, their X-ray machines should easily be able to penetrate through wood and fiberglass. If not that, then maybe call a local mobile medical X-ray company and see if their machines can pass through wood/fiberglass?

Not sure how cheap/expensive it would be, just a thought.

[svandamme]

Can you run hot water through the line and perhaps Thermal image figure out how , where it goes through the body/chassis?

if it doesn't snake around to much, could you perhaps use the old line to pull a new one through?

[nota]

when I replaced a tank to hi-pressure fuel pump line under a 240 turbo
the part was very expensive only made by volvo only for 240 turbo and out of stock
and I didnot want a rubber hose exposed under the car so I got copper tube to encase it
as the copper was easy to bend and had some protection
note put the rubber line inside the copper before it is bent as it will not go after it is bent
and the line will prevent the copper from kinking

do like the idea of heat or cold to get a thermal location of the connection