Decorum and being a gentleman

[upsscott]

Originally Posted by drcoastline

Why does it matter what the origin is?

It doesn’t matter, I’m simply curious.

[upsscott]

Bottom line for me, I’m not looking for reasons to judge other people. I could care less if someone wears a hat indoors. My dad pounded the hat rule into us when we were young so I instinctively take off my hat at the majority of indoor places. I never questioned why or even thought about it, until this thread popped up. Fint satisfied my curiosity.

[jhynesrockmtn]

I was at basically the same mass yesterday with my 85 year old mother. There were 5 or 6 RCIA candidates presented. I'm a lapsed catholic, who ironically works at a catholic school. I've been taking my mom to church every weekend though. She's in memory care and this is a great outing for her. My wife is getting a kick out of all of this as she bugs me constantly about being a non believer.

Anyway, an older guy was in church yesterday in running gear, shorts, and a green bay packers stocking cap. Your 25 year old was overdressed compared to this guy. Given how empty churches are these days, I guess butts in seats is a good thing.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by hbueno

It certainly matters to understand the reasons behind various etiquette rules. For me, "I told you so" isn't good enough. Give me a cogent reason and then I may choose to go along.

For example, holding a door open for someone is obviously courteous and thoughtful. Wearing a hat doesn't affect other people.

BTW, I don't wear hats, so it's not a problem for me either way.

And that, right there, is the root of the problem.

For some people it’s all about me, and the hell with you.

[javadog]

This decline in culture and intelligence goes far beyond hat wearing. People dress like bums, have no grasp of vocabulary, haven’t read a single book in the last year, couldn’t write a check or balance a checkbook, can’t tell you how many nickels are in a dollar and fail in every other aspect of their personal ability.

If you think none of this matters, there are countries out there that will soon prove to you that they do.

[Paul T]

Originally Posted by javadog

This decline in culture and intelligence goes far beyond hat wearing. People dress like bums, have no grasp of vocabulary, haven’t read a single book in the last year, couldn’t write a check or balance a checkbook, can’t tell you how many nickels are in a dollar and fail in every other aspect of their personal ability.

If you think none of this matters, there are countries out there that will soon prove to you that they do.

I know we disagree politically, but this is 100% spot on.

[matthewb0051]

Originally Posted by javadog

This decline in culture and intelligence goes far beyond hat wearing. People dress like bums, have no grasp of vocabulary, haven’t read a single book in the last year, couldn’t write a check or balance a checkbook, can’t tell you how many nickels are in a dollar and fail in every other aspect of their personal ability.
.

100% agree.

In recent years I've seen grown a$$ adults wearing workout clothes or tennis clothes to Mass either on their way to or from the workout/tennis match. Sorry, but you aren't that busy that you can't dress appropriately.

There is a big difference between "this is all I have" and the person that has plenty of $$ but choses to dress like they weren't taught better by their parents.

2 other things I forgot to mention:

One of the RCIA 'teachers' routinely wears Dallas Cowboy jerseys to Mass during the NFL season. So we know he isn't providing the new guy with the proper education.

Secondly... during the RCIA ceremony yesterday, this woman walked up to the pew in front of us and literally forced her way onto the pew and didn't even bother to ask the people sitting there if they could scoot down. Her purpose??? She took out her phone to video record the event for her relative that appeared to be about 30 yo. Honestly, it isn't your kids effen dance recital...

[matthewb0051]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

I'm a daily hat wearer and hat etiquette can be complicated. (I have a "Winston Churchill" sized collection )

Note: Non of this applies to women!

I concur that this doesn't apply to women. But FFS, it should on some level as they seem to have pushed the boundaries. I get that women can wear nice hats indoors and in church. However, I've seen them wearing baseball caps and baseball caps with bedazzled stuff on them. I really don't think the general rule contemplates that, nor the drunken cowboy hat that you bought at the Redneck Rivera but I've seen that too.

Also (and not to get too far off the original) women get away with murder when it comes to business attire. Last week I was in court wearing suit/tie. One of the female ADAs had on what would equate for a man as slacks and a shirt, no jacket. Totally wrong, at least wear a jacket (like her subordinate was wearing...). If I showed up like that, no doubt that the judge would tell me to leave and return when appropriately dressed.

[matthewb0051]

We need a bit more of this. Everything I need to learn about how to act in life came from Andy Griffith

[asphaltgambler]

.Yes ........I agree with the OP. I was taught that a man wearing a hat indoors, is being disrespectful to the host(s) and other guests. Our church, non-denominational, have people from all cultures, back-grounds and income levels in attendance.

Some of the younger guys wear ball caps in the sanctuary as well as some younger women roll in with their giant gallon jug of 7-11 'juice' and cell phones which are apparently now an actual appendage out of their hand. And for some reason cannot put either one down long enough to receive the message from our praise and worship team or one of our pastors.

I am glad they are there, but bothers me that, in my upbringing being is disrespectful to the message and the family. My $.02

[fintstone]

It seems to me, that tolerating small things leads to large ones. We start with our children and teach them to respect our rules and those of society at large. Written and unwritten. Everything form removing a hat to children being sitting quietly in a store or restaurant for safety and as not to disturb other shoppers or diners who also paid their own good money to be there.

As children get older, they learn a broader set of customs, courtesies and laws society has imposed to keep order and help people interact socially. Good behavior on the playground and in school where others are hopefully trying to learn something (and make something of themself so their family will be proud of them). Among these are prohibitions against crime and mistreatment of the weak (women, children, animals, etc.). It also includes moral values like those of hard work and sacrifice, delayed gratification and providing for oneself and one's family. These expand to service to the community and nation. Share customs, courtesies and values are what makes a melting pot of a country work. Failure to enforce them socially and in the family (stigmatize those that fail to meet our standards of behavior) lets them down and the entire community.

When I joined the Air Force, they provided some very clear rules of behavior and very specific ways to do certain tasks. Wear of a uniform, headwear, when each could be worn, etc. When and how to salute...even marching had to be done perfectly in an era when most people drove. Beds had to be made immediately upon rising and in a very exacting way. One practice that struck most as particularly odd was the way we had to keep our possessions. We each had a small locker with a single drawer. Each garment had to hang facing the same direction with the buttons buttoned and the trousers had to all be hanged in a certain standardized manner. The same with items in the drawer which included shaving gear, soap, shampoo, handkerchief, underwear/t-shirts and belt. Each had a specific spot, size and orientation. No deviations were allowed. The t-shirts and underwear had to be folded and oriented in a very specific manner. They had to be folded exactly a certain way and size (Drill Instructor measured them) when you were out in class of physical training and standards were strictly enforces...every day. I wondered why they did this...and one instructor noted that they couldn't trust people with big things until they proved they could be trusted with small ones. If we could not fold our underwear as instructed, they were not going to trust us with using a weapon properly/safely or to work on an aircraft or nuclear weapon. We had very strict guidelines to follow in our future military jobs that we may or may not understand the reasoning for (or agree) but we would have to follow them without hesitation or deviation. It seemed to work well as generations of 18-year-olds went on to training and subsequently working on and operating complex aircraft. missile, nuclear weapon systems etc. without killing themselves or destroying the world.

Rules at school, the military, and society at large were always pretty easy for me and helped me be relatively successful in business and marriage. Even though I had very humble beginnings and arguably less opportunity than some. It was largely because my family, community, church, and school all had standards...and all enforced them. Not all of the standards of behavior were easy, practical, or even made a lot of sense to me at the time. Many make more sense now (but not all). None harmed me in any way.

[matthewb0051]

My prediction was right. In Zoom court this morning wearing just shirt/tie. In 2 courts that was no issue. The third court, judge told me and another attorney to put on jacket. Meanwhile a female attorney was allowed to wear just a shirt.

Meanwhile my client, whom I had instructed on proper court attire, was wearing a PBR t-shirt and shorts. He was a heartbeat away from a bond increase.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by daepp

.... The RCIA director and the Priest let everyone down ....

Yup. And again, for those unfamiliar with Catholic culture, males may not ever.....ever.....wear a hat at Mass. Women used to be required to cover their heads, and they can still be seen wearing veils atop their heads or hats. Men....never ever.

And as a separate matter - manners generally are going the way of the Dodo bird.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by matthewb0051

I concur that this doesn't apply to women. But FFS, it should on some level as they seem to have pushed the boundaries. I get that women can wear nice hats indoors and in church. However, I've seen them wearing baseball caps and baseball caps with bedazzled stuff on them. I really don't think the general rule contemplates that, nor the drunken cowboy hat that you bought at the Redneck Rivera but I've seen that too.

Also (and not to get too far off the original) women get away with murder when it comes to business attire. Last week I was in court wearing suit/tie. One of the female ADAs had on what would equate for a man as slacks and a shirt, no jacket. Totally wrong, at least wear a jacket (like her subordinate was wearing...). If I showed up like that, no doubt that the judge would tell me to leave and return when appropriately dressed.

Women live in a different world to men. Always have always will.

And just to get this off my chest... Tattoos. I really don't get it.

[GH85Carrera]

I just dress casual. Shorts in the summer time and jeans in the cold months. Most of the time a t-shirt or polo shirt for nicer restaurants. I have not been inside a church since the days of photographing weddings for a living. That was a suit and tie event.

When I appeared in front of a judge to accept the duties of executor of my dad's estate was the last time I wore a tie. I plan to never wear a tie again. I wore enough ties in my lifetime as a photographer that I have used my my lifetime quota, and I set that limit.

For weddings or events that are "dressy" I have what my wife calls my uniform. Nice slacks and a full button up shirt and a sport coat if it is cold.

I wear a ball cap style hat with my company logo on it is it is sunny to keep the sun off my face, or it is is cold to keep my head warm. I will take it off at a restaurant as I sit down. I do always hold doors open for ladies and let them in first, and if a guy is right behind me I will hold it open so they can grab the door to follow me in to a business.

One of my wife's work friends got married in the Arcadia Round Barn, on Rt66. My wife was having a hard time wearing jeans to a wedding and called the bride. She replied "we're gettin married in a barn" so please wear jeans. That was a nice change.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by Paul T

I know we disagree politically, but this is 100% spot on.

We do disagree politically, and Javadog's comment was indeed spot-on. And while I don't want to PARF up this thread, I will say that some folks seem to have a blind spot about that. He says:

"For some people it’s all about me, and the hell with you."

Selfishness, right? Just where does "freedom" end and "selfishness" begin? I see folks INSISTING that they are free to dismiss whatever requirements they want to dismiss, even mandates, because.....FREEDOM. Nevermind that people are dying. I am free to drive 100 mph along residential streets with my eyes closed.

Yes, there is a problem with the "It's all about ME, and the hell with YOU" thing.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by drcoastline

I do the same, almost always getting a thank you for those older than me and often from those that are about my age. ---snip---

When I flew to Tahiti it was on New Zealand Airlines.

All airline employees included "Please" and "Thank You" when communicating with each other - as well as with their customers.

==========

When I worked in sales as a supplier, the company I worked for put emphasis on relationship building. I'll never forget learning the concept that fellow associates were also customers. And thus, should be treated as such.

==========

The everyday person would benefit from some of the basics we espoused in sales.....

[rusnak]

I'm curious about how people would define the term or concept of "respect".

To you, what is respect? How would you define it?

[javadog]

Respect has several meetings, in this case, the dictionary defines it as “ due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others.”

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by matthewb0051

We attend a Catholic church mainly because my FIL goes there and my MIL died about 18 months ago. He is 88 and we don't want him to go alone. We would otherwise go to a different Catholic church if it were not for him (this one is just an auditorium with an alter on the side and looks nothing like a church, Catholic or otherwise). Background over.

So today we were in attendance and the adults that are taking classes (RCIA) to be baptized (having not been raised Catholic or didn't get it done when a kid) were being presented for admission or whatever it is called.

They walk in with the priest and then take their seats. One of the RCIA candidates was a young man about 25ish. Idiot walks in with a baseball cap on and halfway dressed like a cowboy. After Mass started it looked like an old man told him to fix himself and the hat disappeared for a bit. But it soon reappeared on his EFFEN head and was there during the Gospel reading and homily (sermon for you Prots).

Then when the entire RCIA group is called up to the alter for acknowledgement he walks there wearing his hat. Not one person from the RCIA leadership, nor his sponsor, said anything to him. Finally, a female usher comes all the way from the back of church and tells him to fix himself. He had a look like he didn't want to do it but finally did so, which was only moments before he was to walk up to the alter and sign some book.

I honestly don't get what is wrong with people. As for the kid; A. He is in a building, B. It is a church even if it doesn't look like one, and C. Cowboys don't wear hats indoors.

As for the RCIA leaders: they placed him in line to walk into church, then sat all around him, then were involved in the ceremony (one actually standing near him to tell people where to stand).

Did I miss a decorum or gentlemen memo that says it is ok for men to wear hats indoors, especially a church? I get it that times have changed but I seriously doubt that much.

Before anyone asks, I was land locked in my pew and couldn't get out and it was on the other side of the church. Otherwise I would have done it myself. Confrontation doesn't bother me.

wow, imagine a life so perfect that someone else wearing a hat is the worst thing you can complain about.



literally, no one cares. no one should.