Decorum and being a gentleman

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

wow, imagine a life so perfect that someone else wearing a hat is the worst thing you can complain about.



literally, no one cares.

It appears that is not the case based on posts here so far. Maybe people do care and some clue bags just don't get it.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by fintstone

It appears that is not the case based on posts here so far. Maybe people do care and some clue bags just don't get it.

yeah, lotta old men who think compliance to some arbitrary code of conduct means something.

it doesnt. never did. but you'll grasp at those straws all day.

plato said the next generation didnt have the work ethic of his generation too. slate teachers bemoaned the adoptions of pen and paper, losing a feel for the slate/chalk they said.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

yeah, lotta old men who think compliance to some arbitrary code of conduct means something.

it doesnt. never did. but you'll grasp at those straws all day.

plato said the next generation didnt have the work ethic of his generation too. slate teachers bemoaned the adoptions of pen and paper too.

Absolutely. Things would be a lot better if all men had a "code of conduct" they subscribed to. It is much like punctuation, grammar, and sentence structure. People just seem to communicate better with punctuation and if the noun and verb are in agreement.

I think you refer to a quote of Socrates (as quoted by Plato):

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

That sure does seem to apply today. Funny how the same old problems seem to keep recurring when a society rejects/moves away from discipline and wholesome shared values/traditions.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Absolutely. Things would be a lot better if all men had a "code of conduct" they subscribed to. It is much like punctuation, grammar, and sentence structure. People just seem to communicate better with punctuation and if the noun and verb are in agreement.

I think you refer to a quote of Socrates (as quoted by Plato):

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

That sure does seem to apply today. Funny how the same old problems seem to keep recurring when a society rejects/moves away from discipline and wholesome shared values/traditions.

imagine reading that quote, and coming to the conclusion that you are right. imagine having that little self-reflective ability.

eeek.

the joke is that every generation has criticized every subsequent generation for these exact things, ergo, your complaints are as meaningless as every other generations were. your generation was just as much a failure as mine, or genZ according to people like this.

a good reminder to never get "old" like this. the kids are alright, in fact, they are better than we are. and thank god. we could only fix so much of our parents failings, thank god someone is going to improve on us.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by javadog

Respect has several meetings, in this case, the dictionary defines it as “ due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others.”

That covers a lot of territory though. I don't know how people would consciously process all of the feelings, wishes, rights, and traditions.

I'm wondering what it means to have respect, to show respect to the people here.

What is your personal understanding of the term "show respect"? I'm just curious about what the guys here would say.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by rusnak

That covers a lot of territory though. I don't know how people would consciously process all of the feelings, wishes, rights, and traditions.

I'm wondering what it means to have respect, to show respect to the people here.

What is your personal understanding of the term "show respect"? I'm just curious about what the guys here would say.

in this case, the issue at hand is what jesus would have defined as respect.

imagine the jesus of the bible being like "bro, you are wearing a hat, you can't listen to me preach about god, get out"

the same guy who had tax collectors, prostitutes, and the abject poor as followers. the same guy who washed his followers feet instead of them washing his. that guy, is gonna be a hard ass about a hat? really? idk what bible you guys are reading, but its not the same one.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by fintstone

It seems to me, that tolerating small things leads to large ones. We start with our children and teach them to respect our rules and those of society at large. Written and unwritten. Everything form removing a hat to children being sitting quietly in a store or restaurant for safety and as not to disturb other shoppers or diners who also paid their own good money to be there.

Absolutely correct. Rules must be set and enforced in a uniform manner. These days that doesn't seem to happen much. Hell, these days kids often don't mind or respect their parents, much less others.

When I joined the Air Force, they provided some very clear rules of behavior and very specific ways to do certain tasks. Wear of a uniform, headwear, when each could be worn, etc. When and how to salute...even marching had to be done perfectly in an era when most people drove. Beds had to be made immediately upon rising and in a very exacting way. One practice that struck most as particularly odd was the way we had to keep our possessions. We each had a small locker with a single drawer. Each garment had to hang facing the same direction with the buttons buttoned and the trousers had to all be hanged in a certain standardized manner. The same with items in the drawer which included shaving gear, soap, shampoo, handkerchief, underwear/t-shirts and belt. Each had a specific spot, size and orientation. No deviations were allowed. The t-shirts and underwear had to be folded and oriented in a very specific manner. They had to be folded exactly a certain way and size (Drill Instructor measured them) when you were out in class of physical training and standards were strictly enforces...every day. I wondered why they did this...and one instructor noted that they couldn't trust people with big things until they proved they could be trusted with small ones. If we could not fold our underwear as instructed, they were not going to trust us with using a weapon properly/safely or to work on an aircraft or nuclear weapon. We had very strict guidelines to follow in our future military jobs that we may or may not understand the reasoning for (or agree) but we would have to follow them without hesitation or deviation. It seemed to work well as generations of 18-year-olds went on to training and subsequently working on and operating complex aircraft. missile, nuclear weapon systems etc. without killing themselves or destroying the world.

Yes, military though does, I think, go several steps farther than is needed for most people most of the time (with very good reason).

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

One of my wife's work friends got married in the Arcadia Round Barn, on Rt66. My wife was having a hard time wearing jeans to a wedding and called the bride. She replied "we're gettin married in a barn" so please wear jeans. That was a nice change.

As a small business owner dealing with a lot of large government agencies as well as large defense contractors, I always ask, "what is the dress code for the meeting"?

Ties seem to me to have become, "a magnificent anachronism" to reference 'Patton'.

I have my uniform as well...nice everything, no tie!

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

in this case, the issue at hand is what jesus would have defined as respect.

imagine the jesus of the bible being like "bro, you are wearing a hat, you can't listen to me preach about god, get out"

the same guy who had tax collectors, prostitutes, and the abject poor as followers. the same guy who washed his followers feet instead of them washing his. that guy, is gonna be a hard ass about a hat? really? idk what bible you guys are reading, but its not the same one.

What does that mean to you though? Can you crystalize that into your own example?

[Baz]

Originally Posted by rusnak

I'm curious about how people would define the term or concept of "respect".

To you, what is respect? How would you define it?

It's an important word for us as a society.

I would also add the word "Excellence" and "Civility" as important words to emphasize as it relates to society.

Were I an educator, these words would all be included and emphasized in my daily instruction.

[KFC911]

Ties .

Somebody care to explain them to me....

Type slow

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by Baz

It's an important word for us as a society.

I would also add the word "Excellence" and "Civility" as important words to emphasize as it relates to society.

Were I an educator, these words would all be included and emphasized in my daily instruction.

To me, civility means to have good manners, and be polite. In other words, explain yourself when people may take offense. Apologize when you are at fault. show gratitude.

Excellence is a tough one. I'm Mr. Ten Tenths. I think my idea of what it means to be excellent is hard to relay.

Respect to me means putting others first. Consider them before you. Show that you hold them in high regard.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by KC911

Ties .

Somebody care to explain them to me....

Type slow

Right, because this is how you roll.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

imagine reading that quote, and coming to the conclusion that you are right. imagine having that little self-reflective ability.

eeek.

the joke is that every generation has criticized every subsequent generation for these exact things, ergo, your complaints are as meaningless as every other generations were. your generation was just as much a failure as mine, or genZ according to people like this.

a good reminder to never get "old" like this. the kids are alright, in fact, they are better than we are. and thank god. we could only fix so much of our parents failings, thank god someone is going to improve on us.

Imagine you reading it and not seeing yourself as others do.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by KC911

Ties .

Somebody care to explain them to me....

Type slow

Literally, one of the first pieces of advice I got from my first boss was the NEVER ever wear a real tie to press assignment that had the remotest possibility of any altercation. He said in one of the riots he covered a protestor grabbed him by the tie and used him as a punching bag. He had to smash his camera into the attacker's head to get away.

For weddings and the endless "grip and grin" dinners and events a real tie is OK when I was paid to be there. I play by their rules.

I just hate that feeling of choking from a tie around my neck. If some event in the future comes up where a tie is mandatory, I will get a clip on bow tie.

On the last few cruises we were on they had "dress up" night for dinner. I wore my nice slacks and a polo shirt. I am on vacation, and that is dressed up as I will get. Lots of people wore Tuxes and the ladies wore formal gowns. Fine for them, I am not gonna play that game. I was not in jeans, I was dressed nice as I will get when I am paying big bucks to be on a cruise for my vacation.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

in this case, the issue at hand is what jesus would have defined as respect.

imagine the jesus of the bible being like "bro, you are wearing a hat, you can't listen to me preach about god, get out"

the same guy who had tax collectors, prostitutes, and the abject poor as followers. the same guy who washed his followers feet instead of them washing his. that guy, is gonna be a hard ass about a hat? really? idk what bible you guys are reading, but its not the same one.

I think this puts it pretty well (I "bolded" some of the text):

What does the Bible say about wearing hats in church?

In Western culture, it has always been considered rude or disrespectful for a man to wear a hat inside a building, including a church building. Even a generation ago, when men commonly wore hats, the headgear was removed indoors, or even outdoors in the presence of a woman. In contrast, women’s hats have long been a standard part of a stylish or formal outfit, and wearing a hat indoors is acceptable for a woman.

This cultural tradition most likely has its roots in the Bible itself. The apostle Paul talks to the Corinthian church about this matter, saying, “A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God” (1 Corinthians 11:7). A few verses later, he says, “Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him?” (1 Corinthians 11:14). In verse 14 Paul is speaking specifically of “long hair,” rather than hats, but both are considered a “covering” for the head. Most modern churches would not consider long hair on a man to be disrespectful; nevertheless, this passage calls it a disgrace because long hair is inherently feminine. Since “long” is a relative description, we apply this according to the culture in which one lives. In the Corinthian culture, for men to wear any kind of head covering in church was for them to take on the role of the women, which is not the order God designed for spiritual headship (1 Corinthians 11:3).

Women have worn hats in church for centuries and still do so without it being considered disrespectful. Again, this goes back to the biblical idea of head coverings (probably veils) being used as an outward, cultural symbol of an inward attitude. However, nowhere in the Bible does it say women must wear hats or veils or kapps in church. The passages in 1 Corinthians 11 that seem to suggest women ought to have a head covering in church are better interpreted as a mandate for women to follow cultural norms, to show respect for one’s husband, and to maintain a distinctly feminine appearance. Many Bible scholars believe the only required covering for the woman is her hair (1 Corinthians 11:15). In either case, it’s difficult to be dogmatic about this passage. Some scholars say this passage is one of the most difficult in the whole New Testament to thoroughly understand.

What is important is that we are communicating Christian principles within the culture in which we live. It is traditional in Western culture for a man to take off his hat when entering a building or saluting the flag (with the exception of uniformed members of the military). Christians living in Western cultures should be aware of that tradition and show due respect in the customary way. During the playing of “The Star-Spangled Banner,” a civilian taking off his hat communicates respect (to the flag); during a church service, it communicates respect (to God). Similarly, in Eastern cultures, it is respectful to take off one’s shoes when entering a home or place of worship; Christians living in Eastern cultures should follow that custom, even if there is nothing in the Bible that specifically commands it.

Taking off one’s hat in church is simply a cultural way for a man to show respect and honor to God. Rather than bucking tradition and “doing our own thing,” we should usually follow the cultural rules, being careful to communicate respect for God in every way possible.

It is certain that God is much more interested in the posture of the heart than any outward appearance (1 Samuel 16:7). Any woman is capable of wearing elaborate head coverings without having any genuine reverence for God’s established order of authority. But godly women who recognize that submission toward their husbands is as submission to the Lord (Ephesians 5:22) are the women God is pleased with. Whatever we do, motive is important. Whether or not a woman chooses to wear a head covering, let it be done with a genuine spirit of thanks to God in the name of the Lord Jesus (Colossians 3:17).

Of course, it is possible for a man to wear a baseball cap in church and yet have a heart full of reverence and awe for the Lord. And it is also possible for a man to remove his hat in church yet disdain God in his soul. God sees the heart. But the issue, sometimes, is what our actions communicate to others; people cannot see our hearts, so we must often show them our respect by what we do.

https://www.gotquestions.org/hats-in-church.html

[masraum]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I just hate that feeling of choking from a tie around my neck.

Then it's my opinion that the shirt doesn't fit right. For me, I should be able to button the top button of a shirt and not feel strangled. If she shirt feels like that, then adding a tie shouldn't change the feeling at all. If it does, then you need to loosen the tie.

On the last few cruises we were on they had "dress up" night for dinner. I wore my nice slacks and a polo shirt. I am on vacation, and that is dressed up as I will get. Lots of people wore Tuxes and the ladies wore formal gowns. Fine for them, I am not gonna play that game. I was not in jeans, I was dressed nice as I will get when I am paying big bucks to be on a cruise for my vacation.

My wife watches lots of old movies and loves that they "dress for dinner." I have no doubt that she'd love to dress up for dinner, at least for special occasions. I like to look nice, but I'd rather be comfortable.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by rusnak

What does that mean to you though? Can you crystalize that into your own example?

to me? it doesn't mean anything to me. wearing a hat or not is irrelevant to me. my opinions about church etiquette are irrelevant as i have no plans to attend a church in the near future.

but i find it funny that a bunch of people who claim to follow the god of the bible have their panties in a bunch over a hat, when jesus himself did basically everything possible to be as welcoming to even the most socially-rejected people in society. he explicitly on every occasion made sure to communicate that he was open to all, no matter how sinful or socially or economically beaten down.

its like its not about church, god, or jesus. its about compliance, and the power to socially compel someone to conform.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I think this puts it pretty well (I "bolded" some of the text):

What does the Bible say about wearing hats in church?

In Western culture, it has always been considered rude or disrespectful for a man to wear a hat inside a building, including a church building. Even a generation ago, when men commonly wore hats, the headgear was removed indoors, or even outdoors in the presence of a woman. In contrast, women’s hats have long been a standard part of a stylish or formal outfit, and wearing a hat indoors is acceptable for a woman.

This cultural tradition most likely has its roots in the Bible itself. The apostle Paul talks to the Corinthian church about this matter, saying, “A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God” (1 Corinthians 11:7). A few verses later, he says, “Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him?” (1 Corinthians 11:14). In verse 14 Paul is speaking specifically of “long hair,” rather than hats, but both are considered a “covering” for the head. Most modern churches would not consider long hair on a man to be disrespectful; nevertheless, this passage calls it a disgrace because long hair is inherently feminine. Since “long” is a relative description, we apply this according to the culture in which one lives. In the Corinthian culture, for men to wear any kind of head covering in church was for them to take on the role of the women, which is not the order God designed for spiritual headship (1 Corinthians 11:3).

Women have worn hats in church for centuries and still do so without it being considered disrespectful. Again, this goes back to the biblical idea of head coverings (probably veils) being used as an outward, cultural symbol of an inward attitude. However, nowhere in the Bible does it say women must wear hats or veils or kapps in church. The passages in 1 Corinthians 11 that seem to suggest women ought to have a head covering in church are better interpreted as a mandate for women to follow cultural norms, to show respect for one’s husband, and to maintain a distinctly feminine appearance. Many Bible scholars believe the only required covering for the woman is her hair (1 Corinthians 11:15). In either case, it’s difficult to be dogmatic about this passage. Some scholars say this passage is one of the most difficult in the whole New Testament to thoroughly understand.

What is important is that we are communicating Christian principles within the culture in which we live. It is traditional in Western culture for a man to take off his hat when entering a building or saluting the flag (with the exception of uniformed members of the military). Christians living in Western cultures should be aware of that tradition and show due respect in the customary way. During the playing of “The Star-Spangled Banner,” a civilian taking off his hat communicates respect (to the flag); during a church service, it communicates respect (to God). Similarly, in Eastern cultures, it is respectful to take off one’s shoes when entering a home or place of worship; Christians living in Eastern cultures should follow that custom, even if there is nothing in the Bible that specifically commands it.

Taking off one’s hat in church is simply a cultural way for a man to show respect and honor to God. Rather than bucking tradition and “doing our own thing,” we should usually follow the cultural rules, being careful to communicate respect for God in every way possible.

It is certain that God is much more interested in the posture of the heart than any outward appearance (1 Samuel 16:7). Any woman is capable of wearing elaborate head coverings without having any genuine reverence for God’s established order of authority. But godly women who recognize that submission toward their husbands is as submission to the Lord (Ephesians 5:22) are the women God is pleased with. Whatever we do, motive is important. Whether or not a woman chooses to wear a head covering, let it be done with a genuine spirit of thanks to God in the name of the Lord Jesus (Colossians 3:17).

Of course, it is possible for a man to wear a baseball cap in church and yet have a heart full of reverence and awe for the Lord. And it is also possible for a man to remove his hat in church yet disdain God in his soul. God sees the heart. But the issue, sometimes, is what our actions communicate to others; people cannot see our hearts, so we must often show them our respect by what we do.

https://www.gotquestions.org/hats-in-church.html

i love this bit cause its exposes the exact point im making.

Of course, it is possible for a man to wear a baseball cap in church and yet have a heart full of reverence and awe for the Lord. And it is also possible for a man to remove his hat in church yet disdain God in his soul. God sees the heart. But the issue, sometimes, is what our actions communicate to others; people cannot see our hearts, so we must often show them our respect by what we do.


its about social compulsion/punishment, nothing about respect or god or anything else. its about the OP's and other old men's feelings.

[Mahler9th]

"...not the one thing."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfTAOsRki0E

Texan and fellow former All-Ivy athlete.