Everyone needs to have only EVs...

[GH85Carrera]

We drove out to the Poconos in PA this summer. We stopped at Gettysburg for a day, and 1/2 a day at Valley Forge. Never any issue getting gasoline and filling up in minutes. 3,650 miles round trip.

At Valley Forge, we pulled up in the large parking lot, and as always I wanted a safe parking spot for my 911. Right by the bathrooms, next to the handicap parking up close and special was the four EV charging spots. So EVs get special close parking, except all four spots had these signs on them. There are only three in the photo so the text of the sign could be read in the picture. I did not feel bad about taking up a EV spot since the signs basically said "No juice for you"

Until the limited EV infrastructure becomes much more reliable, EVs are not ready for prime time except as a commuter vehicle. If I was commuting 30 or 40 miles per day each way I would indeed have a EV. My commute is 14 steps down the hall, so I will stick to my cars I bought in the last millennium and were paid for back then.

[island911]

Exactly ^

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

there are 3 gas stations on the same corner of the street 4 blocks from my house.

what the actual **** kind of argument is "EV infrastructure is too expensive"

insane.




we are going to switch to EVs, and not because they are greener, and not because they are cheaper. we are going to switch to EVs because they are better cars. period. the model 3 performance pack is currently a better car than cars cost 2 and 3 times as much. and can do everything than can do with the AC on carrying 3 passengers. end of story. EVs already won. its over. if you cant see that, you are lost.

That is a lot of ignorance on display there cp.

Each "supercharge" station requires massive inverters to take the AC and convert it to DC. - not cheap. If it were cheap Tesla would have them in more locations than Starbucks. - It's not as if Tesla doesn't have the capital to expand infrastructure. It's that each charger costs more than the car.

And THEN, where does that power/electricity originate?

[Otter74]

I don't even have to shout, because the EVs are whirring by silently

gasoline fueling infrastructure did not spring up fully formed overnight, and neither is electrical charging infra. But it's happening. So is the work to allow grids to handle it.

Originally Posted by island911

Sure sure... and you sound like a guy on the street corner shouting the EV is near!

Seriously though, while both EV and ICE cars have upstream pollution, EV's have much more. But that is not the beef of this topic...

EV's rely on high energy efficiency to offset their horrible batteries. ICE cars have excellent energy density but (relative) crap conversion/thermal efficiency - but that has been changing, and changing much faster than batteries have gotten better.

And then there is infrastructure. The "rapid" charging stations are ridiculously expensive, especially considering how slowly they 'pump' the electrical energy. Sure, gas stations are not cheap, but they have massive throughput from a single pump. - how many pumps are at your local Costco? Are they busy? How many rapid chargers would be needed to compete with that energy throughput? Can the grid handle that?

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by island911

Exactly ^
That is a lot of ignorance on display there cp.

Each "supercharge" station requires massive inverters to take the AC and convert it to DC. - not cheap. If it were cheap Tesla would have them in more locations than Starbucks. - It's not as if Tesla doesn't have the capital to expand infrastructure. It's that each charger costs more than the car.

And THEN, where does that power/electricity originate?

no, it doesn't. you can have a super charger in your house for less than 5 grand.



a power plant.

this isnt rocket science. if we can figure out a trucking system to put gas in every gas station. like we currently use the dumbest system possible for gas distribution, we can handle charging electric cars. it will happen, just the same as it happened for gas, and it will be a power of ten more efficient than trucking gasoline around.

[island911]

Originally Posted by Otter74

I don't even have to shout, because the EVs are whirring by silently

gasoline fueling infrastructure did not spring up fully formed overnight, and neither is electrical charging infra. But it's happening. So is the work to allow grids to handle it.

Sure, but from an engineering economy perspective EV's are not the efficient path.

Hybrids, OTOH, make sense. Sure they add a layer of costly complexity to an ICE auto, but that complexity has economic viability (overall efficiency increased, typically.) And hybrids can exist as Plug-ins - which have both the slow over-night charge option AND the gas & go option.

This model of Tesla type full EV's taking over the flexibility (range & quick charge) is a massively expensive, resource-taxing endeavor. And for what? Some imagined ideal? - an ideal that requires MASSIVE strip mining to create huge batteries? Which then take massive additional infrastructure spending to reconfigure energy distribution (that has a likely origin of burning hydrocarbons)

[island911]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

no, it doesn't. you can have a super charger in your house for less than 5 grand. ..

yeah?

Is that the deal where you burn your garage to the ground?

Seriously, a super-charger in your house does not make a road trip easy.

And, if these are so cheap, then why are they not more ubiquitous than Starbucks or truck stops?

at 5k each, a Billion USD ought to buy 200 thousand super-chargers. - that's 4k per State. Where are they?

A Billion USD is play money for Tesla, so why are there not hundreds of thousands of these?

[MysticLlama]

[Racerbvd]

Some of the groups that I instruct for no longer allow EVs .

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by island911

yeah?

Is that the deal where you burn your garage to the ground?

Seriously, a super-charger in your house does not make a road trip easy.

And, if these are so cheap, then why are they not more ubiquitous than Starbucks or truck stops?

at 5k each, a Billion USD ought to buy 200 thousand super-chargers. - that's 4k per State. Where are they?

A Billion USD is play money for Tesla, so why are there not hundreds of thousands of these?

you realize the threat of fire to your garage is astronomically higher with gasoline in cans in it than electricity right?

there are already more than 200 thousand super chargers ... there are more than 2 million.

they are in people's garages.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by MysticLlama

Might be wrong but I don't think Tesla actually manufacture much other than batteries

They assemble numerous parts manufactured away from their factories ie tires, body pressings, interiors, suspension etc

Bet those graphs would be the other way around if the full scope of manufacturing was accounted for

[Sooner or later]

Level 1 and level 2 chargers are in homes.

Tesla Superchargers and DC fast are generally not used in homes due to very high cost.

[hbueno]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

you realize the threat of fire to your garage is astronomically higher with gasoline in cans in it than electricity right?

there are already more than 200 thousand super chargers ... there are more than 2 million.

they are in people's garages.

Can you post a reference to where people are installing 72, 150, or 250 kw Tesla Superchargers in their homes?

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Having just spent the last 3yrs working on the most power dense/fastest discharge batteries probably used in any automotive application I've had a glimpse of the future

The technology challenges will be overcome, so will the logistical/infrastructure challenges too but I just can't see the cost to the consumer being anything like affordable for the average income motorist for a long time into the future

I'm not anti-EV but very anti-governments, institutions, companies bull$hitting/forcing the general population of the world down a one way street. There are so many other sectors of industry that need prioritising before car usage regarding their green credentials eg shipping, energy generation, raw material extraction, manufacturing, fashion, agriculture, etc etc

I think the EV revolution is more about keeping the developed world money machine going than any real desire to soften the impact people have on the planet

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

Having just spent the last 3yrs working on the most power dense/fastest discharge batteries probably used in any automotive application I've had a glimpse of the future

The technology challenges will be overcome, so will the logistical/infrastructure challenges too but I just can't see the cost to the consumer being anything like affordable for the average income motorist for a long time into the future

I'm not anti-EV but very anti-governments, institutions, companies bull$hitting/forcing the general population of the world down a one way street. There are so many other sectors of industry that need prioritising before car usage regarding their green credentials eg shipping, energy generation, raw material extraction, manufacturing, fashion, agriculture, etc etc

I think the EV revolution is more about keeping the developed world money machine going than any real desire to soften the impact people have on the planet

the average new car transaction is 42k.

a tesla model 3 is 46k with a 3,500 dollar tax break.

an EV is no more expensive than the average car.

[aschen]

Bolt is ~30k MSRP with 250mi range. Battery cost per KWH came down by 80% over the last decade.

The large manufacturers of cars are just coming online with vehicles intented for scale. EVs will be cheaper than IC equivalents in a decade.

The future of automobiles is electric. It has already been decided. The infrastructure will be forced to adapt. The time line is being written but tradjectory is set.

Electrification is well under way in nearly every other faster moving industry. This feels a bit like Deja Vu when top performance RC went from nitro fuel and then lithum / brushless. Battery powered hand tools have all but replaced pneumatic. Battery powered lawn tools are better than gas for people with median sized yards.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by aschen

Bolt is ~30k MSRP with 250mi range. Battery cost per KWH came down by 80% over the last decade.

The large manufacturers of cars are just coming online with vehicles intented for scale. EVs will be cheaper than IC equivalents in a decade.

The future of automobiles is electric. It has already been decided. The infrastructure will be forced to adapt. The time line is being written but tradjectory is set.

Electrification is well under way in nearly every other faster moving industry. This feels a bit like Deja Vu when top performance RC went from nitro fuel and then lithum / brushless. Battery powered hand tools have all but replaced pneumatic. Battery powered lawn tools are better than gas for people with median sized yards.

yup.

as i said before, we are going to switch to EVs. not because they are cleaner, or cheaper or whatever ... we are going to switch to them because they are better. the model 3 performance pack is a better car than cars double the price. its that simple. its just better.

[aschen]

I mean there are still compromises. I wouldnt own a tesla due to parts support and they certainly arnt good road trip vehicles. Any one I know who has an EV around here has another long distance vehicle. Replacing one IC vehicle with 2 defeats the purpose, but most housholds are multi vehicle already. Long distance travel still needs to be solved and actual heavy duty practicality like towing will lag.


Disclaimer: never owned an EV or even a hybrid and I work in big nasty oil. Will probably buy a prius prime when car market returns to sanity

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by aschen

I mean there are still compromises. I wouldnt own a tesla due to parts support and they certainly arnt good road trip vehicles. Any one I know who has an EV around here has another long distance vehicle. Replacing one IC vehicle with 2 defeats the purpose, but most housholds are multi vehicle already. Long distance travel still needs to be solved and actual heavy duty practicality like towing will lag.


Disclaimer: never owned an EV or even a hybrid and I work in big nasty oil. Will probably buy a prius prime when car market returns to sanity

they actually are fantastic road trip vehicles.

costs 10% what a gas car costs to drive per day, and let elon do the driving.

everyone i know with teslas road trips them all over the place. thats half the point. cheap, easy, relaxing road tripping.

[aschen]

its just not true for people who don't make a sport of "find the supercharger that isnt broken".

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by aschen

its just not true for people who don't make a sport of "find the supercharger that isnt broken".

idk, my two closest tesla owning friends have never had a problem in there BOTH coasts road trips that they went on.

i believe them.