Amazon rain forest was terraformed??

[unclebilly]

Here are my ignorant thoughts…

1.
A civilization could be very specialized at mathematics, language, and construction but not develop any tactics for warfare or weapons. They could be easily overthrown by a ‘less civil’ or advanced civilization who would then inhabit the beautiful city.

I think we would all argue that humans are far more intellectually advanced than alligators. What species would survive a cage match?

2.
The North American Indians (First Nations) typically raided each other’s camps and establishments raping and killing as they went. I think the Haida may have had the most advanced establishments but unfortunately these were built with cedar and other woods that didn’t survive like the sandstone structures of other early people.

In Canada, it is a thing to acknowledge that we are on ‘First Nation’ land and name the tribes that were in the area at the time of European contact. I think that we ought to acknowledge the original people who were on the land, whoever they were.

[zakthor]

There's a book 'the lost city of z' about the search for cities in the amazon. Apparently the first spanish down the river encountered cities that took days to drift by. The rafters ran out of food and stole. There were big barrels of alcohol beverage. The spaniards were in pretty bad shape when they reached the ocean so everyone thought they were howling mad.

There's actual evidence now, miles long canals and straight roads, berms. Also hills that are actually piles of broken ceramic shards. A few pieces I've seen photographed were high fired and had lovely brushstrokes in the glaze.

One theory is that first raft trip brought smallpox or another western disease which dynamited the entire place. Similar journeys a few decades later went looking for the cities and found nothing. Maybe similar to what is documented to have happened on haida gwai.

What is so sad to me is the loss of the culture. Who knows what awesome stuff they could have shared. Stories, food, etc. They were people that looked to have had a lot of leisure time.

[GH85Carrera]

Oklahoma is mostly all former and active reservations. Some are still very active.

https://famok.org/

This museum is very near downtown Oklahoma City. Very amazing place. They to have one small display that mentions the tribal wars, and slavery of other tribal members captured in battle.

The First Americans was a pure stone age peoples. They had no concept of metals until the white man came to trap animals and trade with metal pots and metal knives for pelts. And they looked at a metal knife and instantly knew it was far superior in every way to a stone knife. To have a metal cooking pot was a real wonder. Then to see the white man on horses learn a beast as large and powerful as a horse can become your transportation and work animal was a revolution in thinking and transformed their entire cultures.

None of that implies they were inferior or stupid, just that they never developed any technology. Europeans developed metal smelting and manufacture over 3,000 years ago. Not because they were smarter, but partly because they also developed writing, and a way to pass knowledge to future generations by reading and writing. The masses could not read, but the people that could were the ones in charge.

[BK911]

Originally Posted by masraum

I don't think that's that unusal, especially back then when things were far less global. While I think man has traveled farther and more widely in the past than many historians expected, I think it was more unusual, and the greatest knowledge of various civilizations didn't necessarily travel.

So if there was a civilization with the knowledge to do X, Y, and Z at a very high level, and that civilization fell, the next civilization or a civilization in another geographic area may not, likely didn't have access to that advanced knowledge. So things get lost.

Think about it, there's still a ton of stuff where modern man with all of his tech and abilities isn't entirely sure how ancient man made items or performed tasks, and yet, they did because we have proof. Aliens? Unlikely. Geniuses and polymaths from ancient times that came up with ways of doing things that have been forgotten? Absolutely!

I think modern man grossly underestimates ancient man frequently or nearly as a matter of course.

Some folks question those boundaries and some of those ideas are starting to crumble, but I think for the most part, a lot of folks still cling to some of the ideas that we "knew" despite evidence that seems to contradict them (even if we still don't have a complete picture, because we don't know what we don't know).

Civilization WAS global way back when.
Megalithic structures all over the globe built with similar techniques and similar inscriptions.
Maps of the world including Antarctica BEFORE it was covered with ice.

Couple of thousand years ago many libraries filled with 10s of thousands of books were destroyed.
Cleopatra library, druid library, romans, and dozens of others.
What knowledge was in those books?

Now with lidar massive cities being discovered in jungles that are 10s of thousands of years old.
Oceanic archeology is also exploring around the coast lines up to 400 feet deep.
They are finding cities with advanced architecture from the pre flood era.

Lots of really interesting discoveries are finally being released.
Exciting times!

[BK911]

Partial list of destroyed knowledge:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_destroyed_libraries

[David Inc.]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Oklahoma is mostly all former and active reservations. Some are still very active.

https://famok.org/

This museum is very near downtown Oklahoma City. Very amazing place. They to have one small display that mentions the tribal wars, and slavery of other tribal members captured in battle.

The First Americans was a pure stone age peoples. They had no concept of metals until the white man came to trap animals and trade with metal pots and metal knives for pelts. And they looked at a metal knife and instantly knew it was far superior in every way to a stone knife. To have a metal cooking pot was a real wonder. Then to see the white man on horses learn a beast as large and powerful as a horse can become your transportation and work animal was a revolution in thinking and transformed their entire cultures.

None of that implies they were inferior or stupid, just that they never developed any technology. Europeans developed metal smelting and manufacture over 3,000 years ago. Not because they were smarter, but partly because they also developed writing, and a way to pass knowledge to future generations by reading and writing. The masses could not read, but the people that could were the ones in charge.

No real beasts of burden that could be domesticated native to the Americas though, except for Llamas which were confined to the far South. Llamas were domesticated for pack animals.

Edit: Not having beasts of burdens really does limit what might drive other technological steps.

[911 Rod]

I now know what I will be watching on YouTube for the next couple of nights.

[BK911]

Originally Posted by 911 Rod

I now know what I will be watching on YouTube for the next couple of nights.

Be careful, yuge rabbit hole!!
Not saying I believe everything, but its definitely interesting.

2 pretty good ones:

https://youtu.be/ktxV4w2yzeg

https://youtu.be/aNvmfXkgw5Q

[ramonesfreak]

Joe has had a few guests on to discuss this issue as well...




https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-39710311

[masraum]

Originally Posted by BK911

Civilization WAS global way back when.

Yes, I agree, but not to the extent that things are global these days. I think long distance travel was a thing, but it was also MUCH slower than today. It's entirely possible that Bob from England traveled to South America, but may have never made it back to England due to much lower life expectancy, long sea voyages being more dangerous and time consuming, etc.... And then there would be the language barrier and the written word and lack of widely available translations between languages likely kept some knowledge from being more widely known/disseminated. Today, an idea and photos/diagrams can be transmitted instantly in a widely understood language and/or translated into just about any other language in the blink of an eye. While I'm sure lots of info/knowledge was shared and disseminated widely, I don't think that it was nearly as extensive as today.

I think that the Scandinavians made it to North America long before Columbus in the east and the Asians in the west. They may not have made any long term settlements, or there may not have been large scale colonization, but I think they were there. I think there was absolutely a fair amount of travel and trade between the far east and west of Eurasia. And it would make sense that there would be similar travel to the farthest reaches of Africa from Eurasia. The idea that man did not travel extensively across those 3 continents seems absurd since you could practically walk the whole thing side to side and top to bottom.

And I think man was capable of navigating by boat much farther and earlier than expected. Do I think there were regular boating routes between all of the continents back then or monthly trade routes, probably not. I don't think ships were large enough and robust enough to safely make long ocean voyages successfully, and probably a high number of folks that set out got lost or killed by weather, disease, other people. I think there was probably a lot of navigation between and throughout Asia and Australasia. And therefore, Africa and Eurasia probably had knowledge of Australasia. I suspect the Americas were remote enough from the rest of the world (Europe, Africa, Australia, and Asia) that the amount of travel and knowledge/goods trade between the Americans and the rest of the world was extremely limited until the Spanish and others started hitting NA pretty regularly.

Today, the world is a very small place. Back then the world was global, but a much, much larger place if you understand what I'm trying to say.

THere were some very advanced civilizations around the world over the years, and I suspect those civilizations had knowledge of and shared knowledge with other groups over vast areas. Central and South America have had some impressive civilizations. Asia, of course, has had quite the list with a long history of advanced civ in China, the folks that built Angkor Watt, various groups in India, various groups in Arabia, Egypt in Africa, etc....

[scottmandue]

Well, after building the pyramids the aliens had a lot of time on their hands.😛

[Jeff Higgins]

Yes, maybe a bit more "scientific" acumen than we often give them credit for having. But, well, in the end, they had one huge advantage with regards to how they viewed and treated their fellow men. Especially the ones they conquered.

[rcooled]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

There's mounting evidence supporting the theory of a conscripted labor force, rather than slaves, building the Egyptian pyramids.

[Jeff Higgins]

I've read that as well. That was just a handy meme. I couldn't find one with Aztec or Inca pyramids.

That said, conscripted service = slavery. A rose is but a rose by any other name...

[Tervuren]

Also possible that given some of the habits abounding that really potent STD's went rampant.

Originally Posted by red-beard

If Columbus and Amerigo and Cortez had encountered populations 10 times larger, they might have had more issues defeating the local populations.

DNA shows lost information over the generations.
Although sometimes that loss might bring about a localized advantage; humanity is decaying as its "evolution".

Originally Posted by masraum

I think modern man grossly underestimates ancient man frequently or nearly as a matter of course.

Local surviving tribe here from time of European contact came down from Canada and said to those around "This is our land now".

Originally Posted by unclebilly

and name the tribes that were in the area at the time of European contact.

[BK911]

Anybody watch the videos I linked?
Would love to discuss.
Very interesting stuff.

[911 Rod]

Originally Posted by BK911

Anybody watch the videos I linked?
Would love to discuss.
Very interesting stuff.

I watched the first one that was about the tools that they must have had even though we have not found them. Makes you wonder.

[BK911]

Originally Posted by 911 Rod

I watched the first one that was about the tools that they must have had even though we have not found them. Makes you wonder.

Here is an imbed of the 2nd video:



Just as awesome as the first one, but in this one they discuss the Barabar Caves in India at about 12 minutes in. Then again at 53:50.
These caves were carved in solid rock as hard as granite using just hand tools, and are perfectly symmetrical.

[BK911]

Looks like I am the only one completely fascinated by this!!

Couple of screen shots:





What they determined was the walls and ceiling were not straight, they were slightly curved. The complete chamber was all curves with no straight lines. Also polished to a glass like finish. When the left side was superimposed over the right side, out of 44M points, 62% of them were EXACTLY in the same place. So a curved surface carved out of solid granite in the dark, is virtually symmetrical. And not just one cave, there are several in the region.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by BK911

Looks like I am the only one completely fascinated by this!!

Couple of screen shots:





What they determined was the walls and ceiling were not straight, they were slightly curved. The complete chamber was all curves with no straight lines. Also polished to a glass like finish. When the left side was superimposed over the right side, out of 44M points, 62% of them were EXACTLY in the same place. So a curved surface carved out of solid granite in the dark, is virtually symmetrical. And not just one cave, there are several in the region.

I'll have to check that video out later when I'm not working. I find stuff like this fascinating. It's like some of the carved quartz crystal items that have been found where they say "they shouldn't have had the tools to create this back then"