Does a degree define being an engineer?

[Dixie]

Originally Posted by masraum

Cool and interesting stuff, thanks for posting.

I started college to be an EE, but it sounded boring...{snip}

I wanted to be an architect, but failing calculus ended that.

It was just like when I was eight, and my mamma was gushing about the lofty IQ my brilliant (but weird) oldest brother had. Reasoning I must be brilliant too, I asked her my IQ. She fell silent for a second, looked me over, then replied, "Oh honey, brains aren't everything. You're cute!"

And that's how I learned I was stupid. (true story)

[dw1]

Tim Hancock brings up everlasting interesting points:

- Very often an engineer (with a degree or not) is called upon to be a test tech, a prototype assemblies, a designer, and other tasks. Does that make one more or less of an "engineer"? (IMHO - more.)

- The lines between CAD equipment "designer" and "engineer" have gotten very blurred in recent years. My thinking is that if the CAD jockey also does design analysis (structural, thermal, fluidic, etc., i.e. uses CAE tools and understands them) and understands the design's application (e.g. what the device is supposed to do for the customer/user/patient) than one is not only a "CAD designer".

In my long experience, I've worked with very very good engineers with 2-year Engineering Technology degrees, and with incompetent engineers who have advanced degrees (people who I thought: "Well, somebody had to finish last in their class.")

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by TimT

My Calc 2 teacher insisted we address him as Dr. Me being the ******* I am would always address him when I asked a question as "professor" and he would always correct me...

I remember first day of class he stated that 75% of us wouldn't make it to the final exam.. he was right.. I failed Calc 2 first go round..

That teacher was an insufferable douchebag.....

Oh and he was a Dr in Philosophy

Oops apologies for the hijack

all PhDs are doctors in philosophy. thats where the PhD comes from. if its not JD (jurist doctorate), or a MD (medical doctorate), its a philosophical doctorate, or PhD. so everything from business, to engineering, to art, to science, is a Philosophical Doctorate.

also, in engineering, unless you want to be a professor, there is no reason to get a PhD.

[aschen]

Originally Posted by Eric 951

In my experience there are (2) types of actinal "engineers". Those who operate heavy equipment--following in the train engineer vein--"operating engineers", and those who hold some type of stamp(professional engineer). Regardless of anyone's education, experience, talent, skills, etc. anything less is not a true 'Engineer" You can be the best designer in the world, but if you submit a drawing without a "stamp", it equates to (2) things "jack" and "****". This is not to downplay anyone's abilities or education, but anything less is just not an "Engineer" in the true professional sense.

Worked with thousands of engineers, managed hundreds of them over the decades from all over the world. Only demographic that regularly stamped drawings and reports were Canadian. This varies highly regionally and by industry. With a stamp on your drawings and 5$ + tip you can buy a coffee at starbucks for oil and gas, it just doesn't matter even the tinniest bit. No legal requirements to have a PE license for many regions and fields.

EIT wasn't a high bar in the ye olden days when I was in school, I think the pass rate for the school I attended was well over 90%. I skipped my appointment because I was a college kid and early saturday morning. No regrets

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by Eric 951

In my experience there are (2) types of actinal "engineers". Those who operate heavy equipment--following in the train engineer vein--"operating engineers", and those who hold some type of stamp(professional engineer). Regardless of anyone's education, experience, talent, skills, etc. anything less is not a true 'Engineer" You can be the best designer in the world, but if you submit a drawing without a "stamp", it equates to (2) things "jack" and "****". This is not to downplay anyone's abilities or education, but anything less is just not an "Engineer" in the true professional sense.

almost everything you encounter on a daily basis, was never stamped by a PE. including, fun fact, most healthcare products.

again outside of civil/environmental, PE is not useful or required or valued.

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

again outside of civil/environmental, PE is not useful or required or valued.

If by civil you’re capturing all construction trades, you’d be right but to file for a permit, all drawings need to be signed and sealed including civil (site work), structural, mechanical (plumbing/hvac/fire protection) and electrical.

The way I define it, is an engineer is a problem solver applying science and or technology. There are many people with a formal education who are not engineers and many without a formal education who are.

There was a time when someone could sit for the PE without a degree but who had a CV demonstrating his experience working under a licensed engineer. I doubt that’s the case anymore.

I’ve dealt with this elitism firsthand. At a kickoff meeting, I introduced myself as the project engineer and the d****bag of an Architect asked what portion of the project I had designed. I replied that my job was to catch his mistakes before they cost our mutual client money.

[David Inc.]

Originally Posted by wilnj

If by civil you’re capturing all construction trades, you’d be right but to file for a permit, all drawings need to be signed and sealed including civil (site work), structural, mechanical (plumbing/hvac/fire protection) and electrical.

The way I define it, is an engineer is a problem solver applying science and or technology. There are many people with a formal education who are not engineers and many without a formal education who are.

There was a time when someone could sit for the PE without a degree but who had a CV demonstrating his experience working under a licensed engineer. I doubt that’s the case anymore.

I’ve dealt with this elitism firsthand. At a kickoff meeting, I introduced myself as the project engineer and the d****bag of an Architect asked what portion of the project I had designed. I replied that my job was to catch his mistakes before they cost our mutual client money.

I think this probably varies by state, but from what I've seen you need to have graduated from an ABET accredited school.

I kind of forgot that I was an EIT in mechanical engineering. I got it but transferred into the project management path before I had the experience to go for the PE. Thankfully I've never really dealt with elitism from PEs, but then again I haven't worked with many architects. My wife works with them on the daily and lordy lordy the tone they use with anyone not an architect is so condescending.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by wilnj

If by civil you’re capturing all construction trades, you’d be right but to file for a permit, all drawings need to be signed and sealed including civil (site work), structural, mechanical (plumbing/hvac/fire protection) and electrical.

The way I define it, is an engineer is a problem solver applying science and or technology. There are many people with a formal education who are not engineers and many without a formal education who are.

There was a time when someone could sit for the PE without a degree but who had a CV demonstrating his experience working under a licensed engineer. I doubt that’s the case anymore.

I’ve dealt with this elitism firsthand. At a kickoff meeting, I introduced myself as the project engineer and the d****bag of an Architect asked what portion of the project I had designed. I replied that my job was to catch his mistakes before they cost our mutual client money.

this is the problem with only defining PE's as engineers, as eric951 was attempting to do.

the reality is that PEs are not the only engineers around. my experience with PEs in civil/evro businesses, is that companies usually only have a couple, and they have tons of engineers that actually do the engineering, and they they have the PE stamp it. so the PE is actually doing the least of the engineering anyway.

meanwhile, there are entire industries that we touch every single day that no PE ever touched anything coming out of them. one wouldnt argue that medical devices have no engineers working on them, and yet, they rarely if ever have a PE touch them.

[aschen]

I never get an air of elitisim from engineers, we don't think we are better than everyone else, just smarter than everyone else.......ok well maybe

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by David Inc.

My wife works with them on the daily and lordy lordy the tone they use with anyone not an architect is so condescending.

I don’t disrespect what Architects do and get along well with those that respect what I do. But there have been a couple that come to mind that were real pricks. And interestingly enough, they both looked like this guy.

https://youtu.be/Sx2e-8FGkB4?si=ZhI6xcUICXFm8ShE

[David Inc.]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

this is the problem with only defining PE's as engineers, as eric951 was attempting to do.

the reality is that PEs are not the only engineers around. my experience with PEs in civil/evro businesses, is that companies usually only have a couple, and they have tons of engineers that actually do the engineering, and they they have the PE stamp it. so the PE is actually doing the least of the engineering anyway.

meanwhile, there are entire industries that we touch every single day that no PE ever touched anything coming out of them. one wouldnt argue that medical devices have no engineers working on them, and yet, they rarely if ever have a PE touch them.

The bolded is pretty interesting--I would have expected there to be licensing requirements for that sort of thing. Is it because it requires full submittal and approval from regulatory agencies anyway?

But yes most design groups have a lot of engineers with a smaller subset of PEs. The PE test is a commitment and it isn't easy, plus I think a lot of people don't want the responsibility that comes from stamping something.

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by aschen

I never get an air of elitisim from engineers, we don't think we are better than everyone else, just smarter than everyone else.......ok well maybe

Fortunately for us, there are theoretical physicists who look down on you to keep you in your place.

[aschen]

forgot my green font and know I belong in the basement with a red stapler.


Never once in my life considered engineering a particularly glamorous or prestigious gig.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by David Inc.

The bolded is pretty interesting--I would have expected there to be licensing requirements for that sort of thing. Is it because it requires full submittal and approval from regulatory agencies anyway?

But yes most design groups have a lot of engineers with a smaller subset of PEs. The PE test is a commitment and it isn't easy, plus I think a lot of people don't want the responsibility that comes from stamping something.

mmm, i mean yes, medical devices are subject to a lot of regulatory for sure. but also plenty of unregulated industries, no PE signs off on what they are selling you. basically that is limited to structural, civil and environmental stuff.

and then there are plenty of engineering that isnt actually in product development, but process and research areas too. figuring out how to optimize production processes, stuff like that. that stuff never leaves the building, but its all engineering too.

[unclebilly]

In Canada, 'Engineer' is a restricted title. The provincial engineering associations such as APEGA (association of professional engineers and geoscientists of Alberta) are very vigilant. Every company that advertises 'engineering' must prove that they have a licensed professional engineer on staff and must have a 'permit to practice'.

So here, not everyone / anyone can call themselves an 'engineer'.

For the better or worse of our system, every Professional Member must prove that they have a 4 year engineering degree from an accredited university or equivalent (APEGA defines what is equivalent). When I was engineering manager at a company that made Pressure Control Equipment (20ksi equipment), the guy on my team that did the drawing and calculation checks was a German trained engineer who was a graduate of a 3 year program and had years of experience. We are still arguing with APEGA about getting him a P.Eng designation. He is one of the brightest and most thorough engineers I've worked with in my career but didn't do a 4 year program... They will grant him a Professional Licensee designation with a limited scope of practice which I think is unfair given his abilities and experience. I'm involved because I was one of his references and recommended him for P.Eng.

As I mentioned above, not everyone with an engineering degree practices engineering. There are also those without a degree that do practice engineering. In Canada, the former can call themselves an 'Engineer' provided they are registered with their provincial engineering authority whereas the latter can not.

Also as professional engineers, we need to prove that we are doing professional development each year and participating in the profession.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk;12102910. one wouldnt argue that medical devices have no engineers working on them, and yet, they [B

rarely if ever have a PE touch them[/B].

This is true but, most employers prefer that medical device engineers possess a minimum of a bachelors degree in biomedical engineering, electrical engineering, or a related scientific field. The degree should include courses in mathematics, physics, chemistry, and computer science.

[BK911]

As a recent ME grad, I hated hearing I wouldn't be an engineer unless I had a stamp.
Then as a PE I agreed with that qualification.
Now in research working with all non-PE PhDs, my view has shifted again since these guys are definitely engineers.
So engineer versus professional engineer.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by id10t

Eh, network bridges maybe ....

Actually not true.

You still can become a Professional Engineer by meeting certain requirements.

12 years of experience under a licensed Engineer. a 4 year degree in Engineering counts as 8 years of experience. I believe a Masters degree counts 1 year. So with a degree, you still need at least 4 years under a licensed engineer.

You also need to pass 2 exams. First pass the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE used to be called the EIT). Then you need to pass the PE exam in your field. And then you need sign off by your mentors who are licensed engineers.

So, you can still apprentice and get a PE license. And you would in fact be a licensed engineer.

Now, most of us who have 4 year degrees in engineering never bother to get a PE license, since we don't need to stamp drawings. But we still are engineers.

Without the PE license, you cannot call yourself an engineer if you do not have a degree in engineering.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

This is true but, most employers prefer that medical device engineers possess a minimum of a bachelors degree in biomedical engineering, electrical engineering, or a related scientific field. The degree should include courses in mathematics, physics, chemistry, and computer science.

but notably not professional engineering licenses.

[wilnj]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

but notably not professional engineering licenses.

I don’t know much about the medical equipment field but my guess is that there is a testing and validation process with work.

In construction, we don’t have that benefit.

A foundation is designed and constructed. Now we have an independent inspector who checks that the rebar matches the contract documents. We take concrete samples to ensure the mix conforms as well but there is no other test before a steel column is placed on top.

Similarly, the steel if erected, the bolting and welding tested, the metal deck put down and that’s inspected too. Then a concrete deck is poured, loading the structure.

All of this happens without a validation of the design, so a licensed professional, who’s staking his career and errors and omission insurance on his design is needed.