A chat conversation I had with a Tesla fanboy today...

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Much like the HUGE subsidies we give to farmers to grow corn (food) and make ethanol to put into gas. It is insane to use tons of diesel fuel in tractors and burn coal to run the ethanol plants to make a "green" fuel. All driven by the farm lobby and government subsidies. I sure wish we had a aerial photography federal subsidy.

do oil companies next.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

one of my platers recently dropped cadmium and put in a platinum line for hydrogen powered cars.

[WPOZZZ]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

You have a point. When I was in England at a local car show, I didn't see any electric cars.

Because of Lucas Prince of Darkness.

Well, I am participating in the grand experiment next week when my new Model 3 gets delivered. I didn't like the looks of the original Model 3, but the refresh looks pretty good to me! It has a ton of features, and since the battery doesn't qualify for the $7500 ev credit, Tesla just takes it off the top. I'm leasing the car because I would like to test the waters first. Most likely the gf will take it after a couple months and I'll be driving my Audi A5 as a daily.

If all goes well, I may pickup a lightly used Model 3 long range so I can claim the $4k tax credit. I have to do it this year because I qualify based on 2023 taxes. This tax year will be a no-go because I know I won't qualify.

Now, why Tesla? I actually wanted and Ioniq 5, but the Ioniq 6 had the best range for rwd at 361 miles. The 6 also had a crazy lease deal from Hyundai USA. Of course, the dealer being independent doesn't really follow the deal. Sure they give you the $7500 tax credit up front, but they also have an adjusted market value of $5k. So, I went to Tesla store and because they are all Tesla owned, there is no adjusted market value BS.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

one of my platers recently dropped cadmium and put in a platinum line for hydrogen powered cars.

This is the rarely discussed backdoor of EV's. It is entirely possible that battery will disappear, and the source of electricity will be the hydrogen fuel cell.

GM has spent a lot of money on this configuration as 'Plan-B'.

[jyl]

Tell me about why hydrogen may or should supplant EV?

Not needing all that lithium and cobalt etc seems a positive. What is the efficiency of electricity-hydrogen-ICE versus electricity-battery-EV? I assume distribution, refueling, and range are to gasoline?

[jyl]

Tesla has pivoted away from its sub-$25K “Model 2” project to focus on its “robotaxi” project.

Why did it do that? What are the implications?

Worth thinking about.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

do oil companies next.

Get rid of the "Oil depletion allowance" first.

[911 Rod]

Tesla just settled the civil case where one of their techs was killed while driving and playing a video game.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by jyl

Tell me about why hydrogen may or should supplant EV?

Pluses - Faster refueling, excellent range potential, no range issue in winter, ALL of the battery issues go away, back-up power for home/remote sites (it's a generator), a lot of the vehicle maintenance savings remain

Minuses - transmission losses in hydrogen transportation, the true cost of generation might be sky high, you still need a lot of electricity (but the gris load can be more controlled), unknown cell life, a good leak can be very exciting.

Et cetera.

Originally Posted by jyl

Tesla has pivoted away from its sub-$25K “Model 2”

Not economically viable, why add a loser when the stock price already falling?

Or Elon is consumed by X, SpaceX, another shiny thing.

[WPOZZZ]

Originally Posted by jyl

Tesla has pivoted away from its sub-$25K “Model 2” project to focus on its “robotaxi” project.

Why did it do that? What are the implications?

Worth thinking about.

HNL just added some self driving shuttles to their Wiki Wiki airport shuttles. I really don't know about riding that. We already have a light rail without a driver, but that is on rails, so it really can't go off course.

[GH85Carrera]

Hydrogen is a great fuel, but it getting hydrogen into a state that a vehicle can use it is the challenge. It takes more energy going in to generate it, and compress it than the hydrogen produces. Until we have nuclear fusion working to make the hydrogen, nuke fission or hydroelectric is about the only carbon free source of the electricity needed to make the hydrogen ready for a car. It is yet another energy source that is "20 years out" to be ready to take over for ICE engines.

[Mahler9th]

Seems like the "chat" was mostly about Musk.

As for Ev's... the train is on the tracks.

Just a matter of time, for example (old data):

https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/

Also:

"Tesla just settled the civil case where one of their techs was killed while driving and playing a video game."

No, it was an Apple engineer, and it happened not far from where one of the most famous Porsche racing teams of all time was located.

Think Apple 935...

Where I live about 1 in 3 households have EVs, and I see electric double decker buses frequently.

Many tier one suppliers of things like clutches, transmissions, gas tanks, spark plugs, oxygen sensors all know the train is on the tracks. Many of these things will be "buggy whips" shortly.

Many of these companies are investing in their futures. Many will be disrupted to extinction.

How fast?

Fast!

What something is worth depends on what you compare it to.

[Mahler9th]

I drove a Toyota hydrogen car last February. Promotional event at Santana Row, right near the Tesla store.

The contracted marketing rep is a part time IMSA driver. I told him I raced a Porsche and we knew folks in common.

The hydrogen car was... unbelievable. Especially compared to the dual motor model 3 I rented at SFO a couple of years ago.

Night and day.

It is not about EV's, hybrids, Tesla, Musk, et cetera. It is about the future. And ducats!

[group911@aol.co]

"Europe" is kind of a broad swath. Where specifically? I came to a different conclusion in Switzerland Germany and Italy.

Originally Posted by Wayne 962

I just came back from Europe - there are more electrics here in CA than I saw in Europe. Really not that many. Anecdotal, but one data point indeed...

-Wayne

[techman1]

Saw a great video on ev viability.
Pointed out one of the limiting factors is battery health. Specifically determining it. Two Teslas, same model and miles. One used in hot climate and supercharged a lot. The other the opposite.

How does the used car buyer asses that? Ice has the compression checks and other things to verify vehicle capabilities.

Pelican brain trust have an update on that problem?

[cockerpunk]

the true problem with EV adoption isnt that EVs are better than ICE. its that EVs are better than current ICE cars. in a world of 3800lbs corvettes, 4000lbs mustangs and M4s, you might as well buy the fastest, and best ****ing porker of a car, and thats the EVs. way faster, way better dynamically, and way better ownership experience (maintance, gas, etc).

i dont get why anyone would even consider a modern internal combustion 3500lbs+ sports coupe/sedan. the EVs are better. if thats what you want, big, fat, fast and powerful ... you might as well buy the biggest, fastest, fattest and most powerful ... and thats an EV.

its not even that EVs got good, its that ICE went the wrong way.


the shame about EVs is that until 1 or 2 more generations of battery tech, there will be no more sub 2400lbs cars. ICE's strength compared to EVs is not power, or speed, or even recharge or range ... its weight.

and weight is the single biggest determiner of if a car is good to drive or not.

and with the big ICE cars basically ruining themselves, and EVs 10-20 years from having the energy density to compete with ICE, the last vestiges of great to drive cars, will be small, cheap, ICE sports cars.

and when battery tech get there, the EV sports car will be amazing. but its not their yet. and the small, nimble, fun to drive car will die with this latest generation of miata and 86.

[Alan A]

Another plug for a miata.
Oy...

[Mahler9th]

"Pointed out one of the limiting factors is battery health. Specifically determining it. Two Teslas, same model and miles. One used in hot climate and supercharged a lot. The other the opposite.

How does the used car buyer asses that? Ice has the compression checks and other things to verify vehicle capabilities.

Pelican brain trust have an update on that problem? "

Well, these kinds of changes create opportunities for new businesses. For example:

https://www.recurrentauto.com/

Where there is one, there either are already more or soon will be.

The train is on the tracks.

Sometimes it moves faster than other times.

Some times it moves slower than other time.

But it is a train, and humans are "meat popsicles" that can be damaged or destroyed when hit by moving trains.

[Mahler9th]

I encourage all here to go drive that Toyota hydrogen car.

It was an amazing experience for me!

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by group911@aol.co

"Europe" is kind of a broad swath. Where specifically? I came to a different conclusion in Switzerland Germany and Italy.

I was all over Italy, then I was in Essen. Only a handful in both places - way more are here in CA...

-Wayne