I'm getting my FFL.

[Rick Lee]

I've wrestled with this a lot, but ATF already knows who I am, as I bought a machine gun last year. Now a close buddy with a large collection is moving to Europe and will need my help selling his guns, whatever he can't move before he leaves the US. I seem to always stumble upon great deals and have always made good profits on rotating my own collection. Flipping was never my goal, but it will be soon. So it's time to make it all official, allowing me to buy and sell to my heart's content without having to worry about whether I need an FFL. Got my fingerprint cards and passport photos today, mailing app to ATF and local sheriff in an hour, then comes the in-home interview with a local agent. This should be fun. Anyway, if you're an AZ resident, are buying from out of state and need a transfer, I'm your man.

[fastfredracing]

That is pretty cool Rick ! Congrats . Always nice to take your hobbies/passions to the next level .
Are there regular inspections/audits that come with this responsibility ?
Even though I run my biz pretty much by the book , I am always a nervous wreck when the state Auditors show up to rummage through my paperwork .

[Rick Lee]

I looked up and called another kitchen table FFL to pick his brain yesterday. He said the agent who did his interview told him he might be audited once every five years and it's been six already and he's never heard from them again. But they say they can do it once per year. I will be very meticulous in my record keeping.

[masraum]

Clearly, I don't have any idea what's involved, but I would think that the key is rock solid documentation. As long as your documentation is meticulous, flawless, and consistent, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. At least, that seems like it's how it should be. Be a good Boy Scout, be prepared!

[Rick Lee]

ATF is infamous for a zero tolerance policy on minor clerical errors, even though the law specifies violations by FFLs have to be willful. And they prefer FFLs who are in it as a full time job, thereby putting their livelihood at stake when making any kind of error, willful or otherwise. This is not even going to be enough to call "hobby income" for me, but I still want to do it right and not help any bad guys get guns.

Phoenix is pretty lax with regard to business licensing and zoning, so nothing really needed there, as selling guns from home doesn't require a permit or license beyond the FFL. This is never going to be big enough to justify a storefront, and I love my real job.

[Jeff Higgins]

I well remember when "kitchen table" FFL's were very, very common. I also remember how hard the ATF hammered those people in an effort to shut each and every one of them down for good. The level of harassment and intimidation became legendary. The ATF succeeded, shutting the vast majority of them down, and jailing far too many for those "minor clerical errors" of the kind any business can make.

They even took down one of Washington's oldest family owned gun shops, Kesselring's. They were in at least their third generation, maybe fourth in the same location. They had an immense inventory of firearms, many of them acquired before WWII, stored in their basement. Anything they had that had been added to their inventory prior to 1968 was, of course, immune to the record keeping requirements of that year's GCA. And yes, they were famous for actually having guns that were not only that old, but that had been in storage in that basement for that long. There were so many that they didn't even know what they actually had.

Good enough customers, those who had become "friends", were allowed to go look for themselves. I would often ask at the front counter, to be answered with "I dunno, let's go look..." and we would often find that oddball that appealed to guys like me.

The ATF decided to target them. Actually, just one agent who had a hard on for them. To "make an example" of them. They showed up about a decade ago demanding records regarding when and from whom each and every gun in inventory was acquired. The ATF knew, of course, that this was impossible. That was the whole point. The family fought, of course, but their resources obviously proved to be no match for the unlimited funds of our government.

Just a horribly unjust abuse of power, all elicited by just one agent. Not trying to scare you off, Rick (I know you better than that), just asking you to be careful. Not so much in how you keep your records, in how "legal" your business is ran, but more so to be very, very leery of their agents. But I'm sure you know that already.

Good luck with your "business". Have fun. Above all, please be careful... that old Chinese curse (one of three) - "may you come to the attention of the authorities". (The other two are "may you live in interesting times", and "may you get everything you wish for".)

[Rick Lee]

Yeah, I've heard some stories. The most alarming of the recent ones is their assassination of the airport exec. in Little Rock.

However .... if they deny my app, it's not the end of the world. I still have a nice collection, live in a very gun-friendly state, where I can do parking lot/cash-carry deals all the time and the state and local police are great.

But I'd like to do some business on the right side of the law and learn some more about the FFL process. The last ATF agent I had a real conversation with tried to recruit me, but that was long ago. I will definitely report back after my interview.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I've wrestled with this a lot, but ATF already knows who I am, as I bought a machine gun last year. Now a close buddy with a large collection is moving to Europe and will need my help selling his guns, whatever he can't move before he leaves the US. I seem to always stumble upon great deals and have always made good profits on rotating my own collection. Flipping was never my goal, but it will be soon. So it's time to make it all official, allowing me to buy and sell to my heart's content without having to worry about whether I need an FFL. Got my fingerprint cards and passport photos today, mailing app to ATF and local sheriff in an hour, then comes the in-home interview with a local agent. This should be fun. Anyway, if you're an AZ resident, are buying from out of state and need a transfer, I'm your man.

Congratulations, one of my Masonic Brothers, who recently passed, turned out that he had the proper "stamps" and more than a few "special" , those are tied up in a trust moment.

[jyl]

Related question: after you become a FFL, how easy is it to give up the license and the responsibilities? Do you trigger any scrutiny by doing so?

[Rick Lee]

I know that, when I give up the FFL or just don't renew it again, I have to turn over my bound book to ATF. I think I'm only required to give them 20 years of records, but I'm not going to worry about that now.

I need to learn about what and when I need to log in and out when buying stuff for myself and then deciding to later sell it, if I had no intention of resale when buying. I bought a 1911 from a guy at a gun show last year. He was an FFL in AZ, but was selling several from his personal collection, told me there'd be no paperwork if I paid cash, but if using a CC, I'd have to do the 4473. I went to the ATM and just gave him cash. I know I did nothing illegal there, but am not sure if he did or not.

[Tobra]

Even if I loaded my own, I would be totally broke if I owned an automatic weapon

[Rick Lee]

I really bought the MG to park some money, as they tend to appreciate very nicely. But of course, Mrs. Lee's father and uncle are visiting from China and want to go shoot it this weekend.

[911boost]

^Agree Rick.

I bought my Barrett M107A1 as a place to park some money as well.

Good luck!

[id10t]

Originally Posted by Tobra

Even if I loaded my own, I would be totally broke if I owned an automatic weapon

Much like boats and planes, much cheaper to have a buddy that has some. I get to play with mini Uzi, fullsize Uzi, Mac10 and m16 on a regular basis, the 1919 not often because it is a ***** to heal with (ammo senitive and picky)

[Arizona_928]

I gave up my ffl. Destroyed my books and moved on with life. C&R’s is a different animal

[id10t]

Are you going to submit for the NFA SOTs at some point?

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by id10t

Are you going to submit for the NFA SOTs at some point?

Unlikely. That's big money, I don't understand the process very well and the penalties are draconian. Might change my opinion over time, but i don't think kitchen table SOT/NFA dealers are real common, and I'd rather let the brick & mortar places deal with that. Still hankering for an MP-40, Stg-44, MG-42, etc., though.

[Rick Lee]

Well, the process grinds on. ATF finally contacted me to say I need a home occupation permit issued by the City of Phoenix before they'd move forward with the interview. I don't know why ATF cares about this, as it's a city issue. And I have some neighbors running businesses out of their garages with lots of machines, noise and smells (all forbidden for residential zoning), who don't have these permits. I know of another FFL in the neighborhood who also doesn't have one. Anyway, I'm working my way through it. It's a $490 application fee, my hearing is on Jan. 2nd and I have to mail a letter to about 20 neighbors and two neighborhood orgs to let them know about it. I'm on good terms with the neighbors I know, but I fear an anti-gun Karen may pop up. ATF said they'd refund my application fee and then fast track me once I have this permit.

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Well, the process grinds on. ATF finally contacted me to say I need a home occupation permit issued by the City of Phoenix before they'd move forward with the interview. I don't know why ATF cares about this, as it's a city issue. And I have some neighbors running businesses out of their garages with lots of machines, noise and smells (all forbidden for residential zoning), who don't have these permits. I know of another FFL in the neighborhood who also doesn't have one. Anyway, I'm working my way through it. It's a $490 application fee, my hearing is on Jan. 2nd and I have to mail a letter to about 20 neighbors and two neighborhood orgs to let them know about it. I'm on good terms with the neighbors I know, but I fear an anti-gun Karen may pop up. ATF said they'd refund my application fee and then fast track me once I have this permit.

Here in Hollywood it used to be that when you rented weapons for a show you just sent your teamster driver to do the pickup and drop off. Then, being California, they screwed it up and you needed to be an FFL license holder since the weapons were rented and you weren't the owner. Became a big PITA and I kicked around the idea of getting my FFL but didn't want the hassle and the recurring fees.

Maybe you can work the angle that you're breaking into showbiz as an occasional armorer for shows filming in Arizona and want to make sure you can transport and temporarily possess firearms safely and legally.

[Arizona_928]

Rust 2.0 might need a competent armorer ^^^