No more 9MM for Cops?

[targa911S]

I think the other 9mm is the makrov(sp) it packs a punch.
The .40 was introduced to LEO's because the .45 was a bit too much for female officers (sorry ladies) the .380 was not enough to drop a perp quickly. The .40 fills the gap.

[HardDrive]

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
I thought the .40 was less accurate since it tumbles whereas the 9mm spirals.

Yep, .40 don't have rifled barrels.

[FrayAdjacent911]

Shot placement counts more than bullet size, in a lot of cases.

I think 9mm is a perfectly viable manstopper, with the right ammunition and good shot placement.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by HardDrive
Yep, .40 don't have rifled barrels.

Why would you need rifling for round balls?

[FrayAdjacent911]

Originally posted by targa911S
I think the other 9mm is the makrov(sp) it packs a punch.
The .40 was introduced to LEO's because the .45 was a bit too much for female officers (sorry ladies) the .380 was not enough to drop a perp quickly. The .40 fills the gap.

There are many cartridges that use a ~9mm bullet...

9mm Kurz (aka .380 - 9x17)
9mm Makarov (9x18)
9mm (Luger, Parabellum 9x19)
9mm Largo (forgot the dimensions on this)
9x23 (forgot the common name)
.38 Super
.357 Sig

[jyl]

I think the history of the .40 S&W and .357 SIG is something like this.

The 9mm became all the rage because law enforcement wanted double-action pistols with high-capacity double-stack magazines. The US military's adoption of the Beretta to replace the 1911 was part of this trend.

Over time, doubts about the 9mm's stopping power emerged. The 10mm was developed. A powerful, high-velocity round, but thought to have too much recoil for general law enforcement use, and few pistols were available in this caliber.

After a disasterous shootout in which FBI agents armed with .38 Special pistols were killed by criminals with rifles, the FBI then spreadheaded the development of a less powerful 10mm. This became called the .40 S&W.

The .40 fits in double-stack magazines and has moderate recoil like the 9mm, has a good record of stopping power like the .45, and became very popular with law enforcement. It can be used in action shooting sports as a "majot" caliber, and ammunition is cheaper than .45. When civilian purchase of high-capacity magazines was restricted, the appeal of super-high-capacity 9mms pistols declined.

With body armor more common among criminals, law enforcement agencies have become interested in penetration as well as stopping power. The .45's low-velocity, large-diameter bullet does not penetrate body armor (or automobiles, etc) well.

So the .357 SIG was developed. This is a small-diameter, bottlenecked, high-velocity cartridge which supposedly duplicates the penetration and stopping power of the .357 Magnum revolver round, in an autoloading round.

Anyway, this is what I have picked up here and there. I'd love to hear additions or corrections.

I have 9mm and .45 handguns. I expect to apply for a CCW license this year, and will probably add a .38 Special handgun (snubby) to the stable. I'm not convinced that an armed citizen has the same need for stopping power and magazine capacity as a police officer. I've heard that the average self-defense shootout for an armed citizen is "3 yards, 3 seconds, 3 rounds". Maybe this is just urban legend, but it seems to me that a criminal, once he realizes that his victim is armed and shooting, has very little reason to press the attack - fleeing is his best option. At the same time, the victim has no reason - indeed, no legal right - to pursue and continue the gunfight. This is unlike the police officer who is duty-bound to pursue and apprehend.

[Rick Lee]

JYL, you'd be amazed how badly someone shoots in a panic at close range. I was stunned when I did my first IDPA shoot a few weeks ago and most of us in the group totally missed the target 4 ft. in front of us on the first shot. When I'm shooting at paper plates 25' away, I can easily put 12 rounds in a 2" group. But drawing from a holster and shooting double action is a whole new ballgame. If you plan to CCW, practice double action shots a lot.

[cashflyer]

Originally posted by FrayAdjacent911
9mm Largo (forgot the dimensions on this)
9x23 (forgot the common name)

The 9mm Largo = 9x23 = "9mm long"


As for using .380 in a 9mm, I have seen it done. IIRC, it causes the case to swell. 9mm converts to .35433 inches, so I'm not sure what the deal is on actual bullet size. I also have this mental block with regard to firing a .38 special in a .357 revolver. I know it works because I have done it - but the math says it won't fit.

[red-beard]

The Springfield Arms XD-45ACP is a 14 round double stack pistol using 45 ACP.

John Browning helped develop the double stack in the Browning High Power (13+1).

There are a lot of things to consider when deciding on a pistol. The main thing is, what do you intend to do with it?

A Cop can open carry on a holster which hangs from a duty belt. You can hold quite a large cannon that way.

For me? I need something I can conceal (required by law!). Even the 'small' Sig P239 is tough with certain clothes. In other clothes, I can easily carry a full size 1911. So everything is a compromise.

The P3-AT is a great gun for it's purpose. In shorts in the summer, it's my primary gun (for now...the new Kel-Tec PF-9 may change this! http://www.kel-tec.com/pf9pr.htm ). I am trying some different ways to carry which may allow something larger in the summer.

I have a Kel-Tec P-11 (9mm lugar) which is a good compromise, and I have a Kel-tec P-40, which is almost the same size, but 40 S&W. At 15 oz empty, and 20 oz loaded, it is a handful to shoot, but quite controllable. But I have only been shooting paper targets. I have switched the barrel on the P-40 to shooting .357 sig and the recoil is better, and accuracy slightly better.

For accuracy, my 1911A1 and my Browning High power are tough to beat. They are not the easiest to carry.

Personally, I would love a nice 3" barrel, .50 cal recoilless. Sure it would only hold 5 rounds, but one hit and the game is over.

And, for the record, most standard bullet proof vests will soak up any of these rounds including 40 S&W or .357 magnum or .357 sig or even .45ACP. It takes a rifle to go through most.

http://www.bulletproofme.com/Quick_Answers.shtml#1

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
Mike,

Have heard the same several times. Perps on Angel Dust (PCP) or whatever just kept coming when hit with a 9mm, while a .45 or shotgun put them down. I like stopping power when its needed!

Joe A

Joe, I'm afraid I don't believe this (well, the shotgun part maybe). "stopping power" (the way people usually think about it...a guy taking a bullet and flying backwards) defies physics. I've read a couple of the FBI studies on ballistics and the takehome lesson was that placement was about the *only* factor in a one-shot kill (ie "stopping" someone dead in their tracks). As stated above, when you mix body armor into the equation needs change, but a 9mm slug in the right place will stop a person just as quick as a .45 slug in the same place.

All other things being equal I agree that a bigger slug likely causes more damage, but it depends where its going. For a private citizen I think the choice of round (9mm, 40SW, 357SIG, 45ACP) is whatever you think is cool and can afford to shoot a lot...in reality it is all about practice, practice, practice...

[targa911S]

Funny this should come up. I just today laid my hands on a Colt Mk IV series 80 Govt. Model in nickel with Ivory. It's a .380. Never fired. It is now in the safe.

[red-beard]

I'm looking for a 90 Series Colt Pocket Nine. 20 oz, 6+1 and steel and aluminum frame. Nice pistol, only made 1 year.

[targa911S]

I'll keep my eyes open for ya.

[FrayAdjacent911]

I'd love to find a Colt Government .380. Saw a used one at a show, but it was little overpriced. Ended up with a Colt Mustang. Nice little .380. Locked breech made recoil quite tame in such a small pistol.

Sold it off, tho, as I picked up a SW 637 .38spl for carry.... when I get off my arse and get my CHL...

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by cashflyer
The 9mm Largo = 9x23 = "9mm long"


As for using .380 in a 9mm, I have seen it done. IIRC, it causes the case to swell. 9mm converts to .35433 inches, so I'm not sure what the deal is on actual bullet size. I also have this mental block with regard to firing a .38 special in a .357 revolver. I know it works because I have done it - but the math says it won't fit.

Caliber designations have got to be about the most screwed up numbering system on the face of the planet. Your conclusion that the math doesn't work out is valid until you realize this. There are not many cartridge names that actually call out the true diameter of the bullets used. Here is a quick rundown on the handgun calibers mentioned earlier, and some others:

9mm Parabellum, .380 ACP, .38 Super, .357 Sig, and other ".38 caliber" automatics use a .355" dia. bullet.

.38 S&W, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, and other ".38 caliber" revolvers use .358" diameter bullets. The old .38-40, aka .38 Winchester Center Fire, uses .401" diameter bullets.

.40 S&W, 10mm Auto both use .400" diameter bullets. Along with the .41 Magnum, which uses .410" bullets, these are the only ones that correspond to their names.

.44-40, .44 Russian, .44 Special, and .44 Magnum all use .429" bullets.

.45 ACP, .45 GAP uses .451" bullets.

.45 Colt, .454 Casull both use .454" bullets. Unless it's an old first or second generation Peacemaker in .45 Colt; then it uses .457" bullets. Unless it's a first generation "black powder frame", then we are back to .454" bullets, but with hollow bases so they "bump up" when the black powder goes off so they fill the bore. Unless you are left handed and have red hair and it's the third Sunday of the month...

Rifle calibers are even more fun. My favorite example is the various .22 centerfires. The .218 Bee, .219 Wasp, .22 Hornet, .220 Swift, .221 Remington Fireball, .222 Remington, .223 Remington, .22-250, .220 Weatherby Rocket, .222 Remington Magnum, .22 PPC, .224 Weatherby Magnum, .225 Winchester, and others ALL use .224" bullets. What fun, huh?

So yes, at the end of the day, it is perfectly safe to shoot .38 Specials in a .357 magnum. Both use .358" bullets. The only differences are the magnum uses a longer case, so it won't fit in guns chambered for .38 Special. This is due to the other difference, the allowable chamber pressures. The .357 mag allows about triple the pressure of the old .38 Special. It would probably blow up the gun if you ever managed to get one chambered; the old .38 Specials are very weak guns by today's standards.

Confusion reigns...

[fastpat]

Originally posted by kach22i
I have a little Kel-Tec P3AT (claimed to be the World’s Lightest .380 Auto Pistol) and was told by someone that a 9MM is the same diameter but the bullet is longer. Is that true?

Technically the 9mm is a 9 x 18 mm case and the .380 auto is a 9 x 17. That single mm gives additional room for powder, making the .380 almost the biggest you can go with in a non-locked breech pistol. There are exceptions, I've been told the Makarov is blow back, but I've not looked at one.

The .40 you've asked about is a .40 Smith & Wesson by actual name. .40 caliber is also called 10mm by some, the .40 S & W was designed to be less powerful than the 10mm Auto, while still offering enough knockdown power to use at longer distances a cop might face.

[azasadny]

My brother is a Ann Arbor, MI detective and he told me they just switched from Sig 9mm sidearms to Sig .40 I bought a Sig P239 in 9mm from one of his coworkers for $500 and it came with 3 mags and had only been fired once! He loves the Sig and I haven't had time to take mine to the range yet.

[cashflyer]

Originally posted by nostatic
..."stopping power" (the way people usually think about it...a guy taking a bullet and flying backwards) defies physics...

Mythbusters episode 25 (Feb 2005) put this to the test. They fired various handguns and rifles at a carcass which was suspended from a pinpoint hanger - so that any rearward thrust would be observable due to release from the hangar.

The myth was resoundingly "busted", as not a single bullet carried enough inertia to even nudge the carcass. This should not be a surprise to anyone with even rudimentary understanding of physics, as even though the projectile has a high velocity, it has a very small comparitive mass.

They did finally move the carcass by firing on it with 12ga deer slugs at close range. It moved just enough to make it fall from the hangar, but not enough to propel it backwards.

[FrayAdjacent911]

Originally posted by fastpat
Technically the 9mm is a 9 x 18 mm case and the .380 auto is a 9 x 17. That single mm gives additional room for powder, making the .380 almost the biggest you can go with in a non-locked breech pistol. There are exceptions, I've been told the Makarov is blow back, but I've not looked at one.

The .40 you've asked about is a .40 Smith & Wesson by actual name. .40 caliber is also called 10mm by some, the .40 S & W was designed to be less powerful than the 10mm Auto, while still offering enough knockdown power to use at longer distances a cop might face.

'9mm' (9mm Parabellum or 9mm Luger) is 9x19.
9mm Makarov is 9x18.

Probably just a slip of your finger there.

[VincentVega]

The glock 35 is the .40 used by several local pd's in B-more. Nice, reliable piece.