I'm still skeptical of the direct 'more guns = less crime' link.

Here's an experiement someone should do: take one of the high-crime, no-CCW areas and issue CCW permits that are only good for a given period of time, say one year, and see if crime goes down. If crime goes down, good; if not, Darwin, you owe me one.

Ah, you might want to work with him on his "articulating very well" after posts like this:

If I find out that someone at the bar is packing I will call 911 and make their life hell for as long as I can. I do not care if its my best friend or someone from a BBS. Joe, I really hope that this person that was not 10 feet from me is not someone we know.

I have also not heard 1 arguement that makes me like CCW over open carry. Once I hear just 1 arguement that I see as being valid for CCW over open carry I will change my mind. Untill that point, I will fight this tooth and nail in my state. I am for open carry here, statewide.

First off, its illegal to carry in a bar. Read the rules on CCW. Second, he is not law enforcement and does not need to act like it, but I am sure that everyone on the forum is now very scared of him. Third, if he was going to fight this, and its been going on for years now, was before the paperwork was agreed upon and signed, not after the cow is out of the barn.

Thom, just because a shall-issue CCW law goes into effect doesn't mean everyone will get theirs the next day. I applied for mine immediately, but plenty of folks don't bother until they either meet a friend who's into guns or become a victim or whatever reason. After the law went into effect in VA, there were long wait lists for the competency classes, which were required to get a permit. VA has plenty of other things working to reduce crime that a CCW law by itself wouldn't solve in DC. VA has no parole. When a rapist gets 25 yrs., he will not leave prison a day before 25 yrs. have passed. VA also has mandatory minimums for gun crimes. ANYTHING involving a gun gets you a guaranteed 5 yrs., exclusive of whatever other sentence you get AND that's again with no parole. Everyone here knows the rules and they are rigidly enforced. In DC you have neighborhoods that are so bad that cops won't even respond to a call before daylight there. You have a very low chance of getting caught for anything, a low chance of prosecution and if you end up in jail, you can get out early. Recidivists are responsible for a large portion of the violent crime rate. VA doesn't have too many recidivists because they don't get out of jail.

Another utilitarian argument. Hmmmm. Why is this right being questioned, do you routinely question freedom of speech? Freedom of the press? Freedom of the press conflicts have been responsible for far more deaths than ordinary citizens gun access has.

Access to a right does not require justification of any kind.

I would think that the CCW community would need time not only to develope, but time for the idea to saturate the criminal community. I think that once a mugger or carjacker has the "he may be packing" thought in their heads the crime rates will go down. But I think you would need a few of them getting shot and making the news first.

I have rarely felt like I needed a gun with me in VA, but I have often felt that way in DC. Yesterday I had a meeting at BATF (how ironic). Walking the 10 blocks from there back to my office, I honestly felt a little scared and a lot helpless. I am not a small or shy person and I do not look like a defenseless victim. Still, I had to walk through some shady stuff and there was no chance in hell of a cop helping out if something had happened. CCW would have made me felt a little safer and given me me much higher chances of survival than just getting lucky.

This is what the test should be to release violent criminals from jail, would you allow him/her to go into a store and buy a gun just like you can. If the answer is no, then the felon should remain in jail because they're too dangerous to remain at large. A released felon can obtain a gun in short order, usually a matter of hours.

The federal restriction on felons who've served their full sentences in state prisons from buying guns is largely responsible for the huge black market in firearms today, it was almost non-existent prior to 1968.

Also, not having parole for non-violent felons is a bad idea. If that's the case in Virginia, in my opinion it should be changed.

Pat, I have no idea what percentage of VA's prison pop. is comprised by white collar criminals and minor drug offenders, but I'd guess they aren't sentenced nearly as harshly as murderers and rapists. There was a Peruvian man who was sentenced to death here for the rape and murder of a female jogger. Apparently, he wasn't given access to his country's embassy counsel and there was a bit of a hang-up in his execution. A reporter asked our then-gov. Gilmore what kind of message this guy's execution would send to other countries. Gilmore replied "Don't commit capital murder in VA." Worked for me.

I'm not anti-gun, or anti-ccw, but I'm also not pro-gun or pro-ccw; but I felt compelled to question the assertion that > guns = < crime. I don't think anything in my post could be stretched - even by Mul or Fint standards - into questioning your right to buy lots of big guns and blow stuff up.

Thom,

The only thing that criminals fear is an armed population as well as the police. Everyplace where the carry law has gone into effect the crime rate has gone down.

The nice thing about CCW laws is that the criminals are acting like Slak, in that they are now looking at everyone and worried that they might be carrying. With "open carry" you can see who has a weapon and target someone else to rob. With CCW you have no idea who is armed and who is not and the criminals do not like that. They then usually gravitate elsewhere, someplace where they have easier pickings.

Joe

Actually Joe, I think open carry makes you more of a target. Petty thieves will steer clear. But if someone is bent on shooting up a shopping mall or a Denny's and sees you open carrying, they'll target you first. I've never open carried before, but I've carried plenty where I made minimal effort to conceal like just a pair of shorts and a t-shirt. Either way is ok in VA, though I don't want to go advertising it.

Uh, huh.

Here's the definitive answer to your dilemma, More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun-Control Laws by John R. Lott, Jr.; I have a copy and a copy of the original reseach paper on which it's based, published in 1997 in the University of Chicago Journal of Legal Studies.

Joe, you're a he-man, everyone knows that. You're the king of the hill. You're a tough guy. Now seriously, quit trying to continually fight. You have nothing to prove about yourself. I'm asking you respectfully now.

Am not trying to fight but many of us are trying to figure out what he is saying and why he is so afraid of this law. It makes no sense and he goes from one point to another.

How about his defending himself and you let him do it? He is the one who started this thread yet you keep jumping in and explaining his actions and standing up for him. By this time in life he should be able to stand on his own.

Joe

PS, hope you feel better with the "tough guy, he man" crap. I could say a few things about you but will not stoop down to that level. Seriously yourself, its not needed and you are trying to provoke a fight yourself with comments like this.

Because he's been working from 11pm-7am all week and he's probably sleeping now!

And I can offer my input without it meaning I"m "defending" him.

Joe, maybe you don't realize how trollish and hostile your words come out. Maybe you're saying what you are saying jokingly. But from here, it looks like a continual attack on Slakjaw, and I'm sorry, but this thread is pretty rocking so far, and IMO, the way you're writing, the only end-result to be had is bringing it down to an insult fest, which would suck, because this has been soooo interesting thus far.

+1.

Slak, get a grip, it's not the guys who have the permits you should be worried about, honestly.

NO, he doesn't.

Yes he does

Two of you are in the distinct minority here. You have a right to your opinion and voice but the two of you are pretty much alone in the feeling that the CCW is not a good thing for Nebraska.

If you want the comments to remain civil, then doing it yourself is a good start. "Tough guy, he-man" is not the way to begin.

Joe

Well, thank goodness your here to back him up...with that "didn't articulate well" BS.

Slak needs to learn to take care of himself. The hole he's dug here? Good luck.