Formula 1 nuttiness - Mclaren stripped of 2007 points

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS

"The offence must be considerably larger than has been projected either by the governing body or the media "

Sir Jackie Stewart
-------
Absolutely.
I'd bet that there were significant usages of Ferrari data in the McLaren car, and/or knowledge by the drivers/team that the data was being used.
Who knows if we will ever learn 100% of the things learned....

Lets tell the whole story about what Jacky Stewart said...

~~~~~~~~~~

Stewart alleges bias in spy row

Sir Jackie Stewart has claimed world motorsport bosses are biased towards Ferrari in the McLaren 'spygate' row.

McLaren go before the World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Thursday amid claims that new evidence could lead to Ron Dennis's team being punished.

But Stewart accused F1's governing body of mounting a "witch-hunt" against Dennis which would backfire on them.

"It seems some of the most powerful people (in F1) are more aligned to Ferrari than anybody else," he said.

"The FIA have historically been very close to Ferrari, closer to them than anyone else.

"There are more Ferrari representatives on the World Council than anybody else."

There's been a transfer of information going on since 1950, when modern Formula One began

Sir Jackie Stewart

Ferrari have accused McLaren of benefiting from a 780-page dossier of information sent by former performance director Nigel Stepney to McLaren's now-suspended chief designer Mike Coughlan.

Three-time world champion Stewart added: "I'm not saying that there hasn't been wrongdoing.

"But to start witch-hunting and trying to implicate a team principal (Dennis) to a level that is currently going on, I think is negative to the sport."

An FIA spokesperson rejected Stewart's accusations, stating: "The suggestion that the FIA's ongoing investigation is about anything other than the pursuit of sporting fairness demonstrates a blinding refusal to accept the basic facts."

Williams F1 team principal Sir Frank Williams echoed Stewart's fears, however, saying: "This may cost Formula One some business.

"I just have concern that if it goes on much longer, it will deter sponsors who are currently in F1, or who are close to coming in."

Even Ferrari boss Jean Todt conceded: "We are sorry it is happening in our sport, but we are in the position where we want the truth to appear.

"That's all that we want, and we are confident the truth will come through."

McLaren were found guilty at a first hearing in July of "fraudulent conduct", but the WMSC said there was insufficient evidence that the team had used the Ferrari dossier to their advantage.

Stepney, sacked by Ferrari, has denied supplying the confidential information to Coughlan. McLaren said at last weekend's Italian GP that they were confident of being "completely exonerated" on Thursday.

[legion]

Knowing the way Ferrari and the FIA operate, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a conspiracy to drive McLaren from the sport. They won't be competitive if they stay. (Ferrari gets a free peak at their stuff.) And they all but hand victory to Ferrari if they leave.

[Craig 930 RS]

Accepting stolen property is just about as punishable as stealing or handing it over in the first place.

Accepting and *using the property for financial gain* is worse than handing it over - it's fairly black & white in the court of law.

Hence the ruling and the (assinine) fine.

[Aerkuld]

Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS

Accepting stolen property is just about as punishable as stealing or handing it over in the first place.

Accepting and *using the property for financial gain* is worse than handing it over - it's fairly black & white in the court of law.

Hence the ruling and the (assinine) fine.

But if the team had no idea or reason to suspect that the information Mike Coughlan was using to set up the cars was from a suspicious source then is it the same? As I understand it they questioned the guy after it was alleged that he had the information which is when they admitted that the information was in his possession. If he had provided any information to the team and it had been used prior to them discovering that he had illegal information then are they still guilty?

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by Aerkuld

But if the team had no idea or reason to suspect that the information Mike Coughlan was using to set up the cars was from a suspicious source then is it the same? As I understand it they questioned the guy after it was alleged that he had the information which is when they admitted that the information was in his possession. If he had provided any information to the team and it had been used prior to them discovering that he had illegal information then are they still guilty?

We're all speculating here, but how hard is it to imagine that RD charged Coughlan with getting this information from Ferrari through his contacts? If that was the case would you still have a problem with the ruling?

[legion]

Originally Posted by Dottore

We're all speculating here, but how hard is it to imagine that RD charged Coughlan with getting this information from Ferrari through his contacts? If that was the case would you still have a problem with the ruling?

If that were the case, I still have a problem with the "inspection" clause.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I'm not so sure Ferrari gets a free peek at McLaren's stuff - the FIA does. Ultimately it's their determination whether there's any Ferrari stuff on-board. Since they're the impartial arbiters (at least in theory) of the sport, they'd know about Ferrari's technology and could then walk over to McLaren's paddock, look around and see if anything matched up, without Ferrari ever seeing McLaren's cars.

In theory anyway. I'm beginning to think the next mandate by FIA will be to have everyone turn over their technical blueprints to Ferrari free of charge.

[legion]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

In theory anyway. I'm beginning to think the next mandate by FIA will be to have everyone turn over their technical blueprints to Ferrari free of charge.

At least a year before they are allowed to run that design...

[Aerkuld]

Originally Posted by legion

At least a year before they are allowed to run that design...

Then it would be like NASCAR.
That's effectively what Toyota had to do with their NASCAR engine before they were allowed to use it.

[legion]

Originally Posted by Aerkuld

Then it would be like NASCAR.
That's effectively what Toyota had to do with their NASCAR engine before they were allowed to use it.

NASCAR is different. It is not a developement series, it is a "spec" series. Teams running a "Dodge" motor know exactly what the "Ford" guys have under the hood and so on. Teams can make (very minor) improvements, but even those have to be cleared by NASCAR.

[Jims5543]

How about after the very 1st race of the season McLaren protests Ferrari's movable floorbord that passes inspection with the old equipment forcing the FIA to implement a new testing procedure?

You really think they figured all that out from looking at video footage or from technical info stolen from Ferrari?

McLaren has been caught cheating, red handed, and I think they got off lightly. They should be excluded from the rest of the season and their points stripped.

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by Dottore

But a 780 page Confidential Ferrari Performance Manual??? That goes beyond taking a peek, spy cameras or radio monitoring.

Of course much depends on how the manual was obtained - but judging from the severity of the penalty it seems clear that McLaren was very proactive in obtaining the manual. In other words the severity of the penalty clearly points to some serious espionage and theft of proprietary information.

Not according to Mike Coughlin's statement this week. It seems as if Nigel Stepney went out of his way to encourage Coughlin to read the material. Coughlin admits that his curiosity got the better of him.

Even after being terminated by the team, Coughlin maintains that none of the material made its way onto the 07 cars. Apparently it is a cardinal sin to admit your that you have discovered some impropriety and dismiss the offending party in F1.

This is nothing more than ruining one of the best F1 seasons in a decade in order to award the Constructors Championship to Ferrari.

[Craig 930 RS]

A 100 million fine is HUGE - it will impact the team.
Look for beans & weenies in the hospitality trailer from now on

[Lothar]

Originally Posted by Jim Cesiro

How about after the very 1st race of the season McLaren protests Ferrari's movable floorbord that passes inspection with the old equipment forcing the FIA to implement a new testing procedure?

You really think they figured all that out from looking at video footage or from technical info stolen from Ferrari?

McLaren has been caught cheating, red handed, and I think they got off lightly. They should be excluded from the rest of the season and their points stripped.

Can you prove that? Otherwise, it remains an unsubstantiated claim, something for which Ferrari is notorious.

[Seric]

Being a Kimi fan aside, Freddy and Hammy shouldn't be allowed to drive either. They accumulated points driving a tainted car, that's not exactly fair is it? Evidence? I'm sure the FIA made this all up right? I'm sure it's all a conspiracy theory to get Ferrari a winning season?

Macca got caught, plain and simple. Their Double World Champion driver gave up the goat. Their test driver gave up the goat. That's gotta say something about the turmoil at McLaren. Alonso didn't even give the team the traditional drive-by after WINNING Monza. That says it all.

I'd rather Kimi beat them fari and square though. *sigh*

[CurtEgerer]

My understanding of the hearing today was discussion of NEW evidence. Specifically, a series of eMails between Massa and McLaren test driver De La Rosa. I read this yesterday but can't find the link to the story.

[stealthn]

I think we need to wait until the whole story is posted, there must be some missing facts for that kind of penalty. I always thought Ferrari cheated with the dominance they have had for so long (Michael aside) I've seen a race where they won by 30 seconds??? but I have no proof

Still there's something missing if everyone claims they didn't hear of or use the information it should only be one person to blame.
Wait and see....


Dennis, give me shout some time...

[ErVikingo]

I'll wait until the info is posted.

Having said that, this is not about Ferrari its about McLaren and their possesion or not of information they should have not had. Also, about lying about having it or not. Its about Ferrari's man stealing info and allegedly trying to sabotage the car.

If it were all about money, trust me that Bernie and company would not have taken this position as they stand to loose way more by disenchanting fans by this action.

On a related note, whilst I enjoy Jackie Stewart's wacky comments and colorful personality, I don't think he's relevant anymore. Makes press but .....

[450knotOffice]

I find it a bit amazing that so many of us here feel that such an injustice was done. Were any of us actually at any of the hearings? My take is that if the FIA felt the need to exclude them from the constructors championship and fine them the absolutely huge sum of $100 million, then there was more than likely very concrete, damning evidence. Just because someone says they're innocent doesn't necessarily make it so. However, when we're talking about a fan's favorite team (or maybe the arch-nemesis of their most-hated team), we have a tendency to always believe the best in them, and conversely, the worst in our enemy. Remember when Schumi parked his car at Monte Carlo? There were two distinct camps - the Schumi/Ferrari haters who used this episode as just another example of how he and his team cheated and were evil, and the the Schumi/Ferrari fans who believed his lame story that he just ran wide and stalled, with no unsportsmanlike intent.

This is the same. I guarantee that if the players were reversed, the McLaren fans who are claiming this to be a witchunt would be completely in support of any and all sanctions against Ferrari. Be honest.

This doesn't surprise me, however. It's part of what being a fan is - you support your team through thick and thin, and rail against the hated team.

By the way, I take any comments and opinions from fans that live in the UK with a grain of salt. Of course they're biased. PlanetF1 is a UK website and they are heavily slanted toward McLaren, and it's obvious.

[Craig 930 RS]

Time will absolutely prove there was a big deal here - a BIG deal. Just wait.

As far as Jackie Stewart - he makes some of the more insightful, accurate comments of anyone in motorsports.

Bottom line in this whole deal?
1) One 'disgruntled, passed-over-for-a-promotion' individual gave private information away. Ferrari turned him down for the Technical Director’s job.
Ol' Nige and Mikey in the garage:

2) Receiving party should have said "BS! This is NOT gonna be in my hands." And called the appropriate parties to dispense with it.
3) Receiving part(ies) used the information for a gain - some gain that we don't fully quite know of yet.
4) The onus - the burden - is thus on McLaren.
Someone gives you something obviously stolen...fer Chrissakes DON"T DIRECTLY USE IT.