Godzilla wins again

[ToddM]

Hell, even Hyundai has a 10 year /100K mi powertrain warranty

Apparently the only one building crappy cars these days that have the worst of the worst reliability ratings is Germany

[nostatic]

then you should buy Japanese or Korean. What's so difficult about this? Since you evidently value absolute performance and reliability over other factors, then the choice is easy and clear.

So what's to complain about?

[ToddM]

Originally Posted by nostatic

then you should buy Japanese or Korean. What's so difficult about this? Since you evidently value absolute performance and reliability over other factors, then the choice is easy and clear.

So what's to complain about?

What does this have to with me? Did I say I was in the market for a car? No. I was simply sharing a formidable car model.

What other important factors are there in a sports car other than performance and reliability? Isn't this why people buy sports cars? Am I missing something? Oh thats right, the way it looks... we should pay 2x for something inferior to that of the competition just drive something with a Porsche badge on it.

Since you dont put as high of value on performance and reliability, you sould run out and buy a new Porsche right now

[J1NX3D]

more developments
AutoZine

Impressive !!!!

Last year Nissan GT-R lapped Nurburgring Nordschleife in 7:38, which was 2 seconds quicker than Porsche 997 Turbo. However, that test was not conducted under perfect conditions, as part of the circuit was wet. Now after times of attempt, GT-R test driver Tochio Suzuki has finally recorded what could be the ultimate result: 7:29 !!

So how fast is that ? Read the following figures:


Pagani Zonda F ---------------7:27
Porsche Carrera GT------------7:28
Nissan GT-R-------------------7:29
Porsche 997 GT2--------------7:32
Koenigsegg CCR---------------7:34
Mercedes McLaren SLR 722----7:38
Porsche 997 Turbo-------------7:40
Porsche 997 GT3---------------7:42
Chevrolet Corvette Z06--------7:43
Lambo Gallardo Superleggera--7:46
Ferrari 599 GTB----------------7:47
Lambo Murcielago LP640-------7:47

In other words, the GT-R is easily the fastest production car in the world. Most amazing is that it is just marginally slower than the super-powerful and super-lightweight Zonda F and Carrera GT. This proves the GT-R has superior handling to claw back the time it lost in straight line.

The result makes the forthcoming V-spec version even more promising. It will have more power (around 70hp more) and lighter weight (around 200 kg lighter). Tracksiders have already timed 7:25 for the development car. Stay tune to hear even more stunning news.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by ToddM

What does this have to with me?

Check your first post. You say it is half the money of a GT3. That intimates a value judgement.

I'd rather have a GT3, and if I had $70K, I'd buy a used GT3 instead of a new GTR. Absolute performance isn't the most important thing to me. Ymmv.

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by ToddM

....

Since you dont put as high of value on performance and reliability, you sould run out and buy a new Porsche right now

This is something I agonize about. Best numbers, vs feel. Perfection would be the fastest, most driver involved car. Example, I hate the idea of paddle shifters and all wheel drive (for a sports car). But I also don't particularly like the porkiness of the current Porsches. Perfection probably would be someplace between a Lotus Exige and those various true track cars like the Radical/Atom/new one with the name I can't remember. Favoring full bodywork but more hp/ton. No driver aids.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

That Nissan is one god-awful fugly lookin' car. Worse than the current batch of crap designed by Dodge. And looks like it was beaten with the same ugly stick.

[ToddM]

Originally Posted by artplumber

This is something I agonize about. Best numbers, vs feel. Perfection would be the fastest, most driver involved car. Example, I hate the idea of paddle shifters and all wheel drive (for a sports car). But I also don't particularly like the porkiness of the current Porsches. Perfection probably would be someplace between a Lotus Exige and those various true track cars like the Radical/Atom/new one with the name I can't remember. Favoring full bodywork but more hp/ton. No driver aids.

These are my thoughts as well. We arw now at the dawn of computers able to do everything better than a human in a normal production vehicle. Stability management has evolved to the point where it can get you throught a corner in the absolute fastest manner (this hadnt ben true until now), DSG transmissions can now shift through the gears faster, and assisted launch control providing the fastest 0-60 times.

What this does do is take take away from particular driving experiences. I wonder when the first electic start vehicles came out if there were those who had no desire to lose the crank ignition?

Nevertheless, I know I prefer the lighter curb weight, the feedback of torsion bars, the butter shifting of a proper 915, having to press in the clutch to change gears and the sounds of an air cooled flat 6. I also prefer to put my money into a platform that has PROVEN itself for durability and reliability... and due to my preferences, I will be no faster then any new common sports sedans that will be comming out in the future.

[ToddM]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Check your first post. You say it is half the money of a GT3. That intimates a value judgement.

I'd rather have a GT3, and if I had $70K, I'd buy a used GT3 instead of a new GTR. Absolute performance isn't the most important thing to me. Ymmv.

Maybe I was speaking from the viewpoint of the car manufacturers, not of the consumer

My question was, how is Porsche going to respond to this? This thing is 1 second of the $450K Carrera GT on the ring and its $70K

[911teo]

If everything is electronically controlled what is the driving experience you refer to?

Changing gears does not require any technique, throttle steering is done by the electronic LSD, braking technique is non important because of the ABS, throttle application is again non important because of TC.

It reduces the driving experience to finding the right line. To this you add that 4WD allow you a wider range of lines and even your steering inputs become less important.

It becomes more and more like taking passenger laps in hot sports cars driven by racing drivers.
Fantastic, but I'd rather do the driving and be slower.

Porsche is going down that path too. These days the only thing that matters is the 'Ring lap time... What a joke. It's all because we are all internet racing... It's all virtual. We beat each outer on what our cars can do on line...

So even the GT3 now has PASM...

Well 2 days ago I drove the Sauber Mercedes C9 and did 5:20 at the 'Ring.... and it cost me only $300....

[911teo]

Originally Posted by ToddM

Maybe I was speaking from the viewpoint of the car manufacturers, not of the consumer

My question was, how is Porsche going to respond to this? This thing is 1 second of the $450K Carrera GT on the ring and its $70K

A Caterham Superlight R500 is less than $70k and it demolishes a CGT at the 'Ring

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Moses

Life is good, thanks!

Porsche is still Porsche. I can't help but think that a 10 year old GT3 will still be a pretty desirable car and a 10 year old Nissan may not be so special. Also, I don't care for the looks of the Nissan's front, but I'll readily admit that may be because I'm an old fart.

People fall all over themselves for the 1990's GTR's, stout, fast cars, like the new one will likely prove to be. That RB26TT, or whatever the old one had in it, was a bulletproof motor.

It does look like it fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down, I will give you that.

[DavidB911]

Originally Posted by 911teo

If everything is electronically controlled what is the driving experience you refer to?

You are EXACTLY RIGHT... The GTR even has launch control (from what I hear) so you have a perfect launch every time. Getting people off the line is one of my favorite parts of driving. Personally, I am disliking newer cars more an more as they add the "essentual" driving aids. The driving aids are nice if your wife/gf wants to drive your car, but I tend to not let them drive. I think the drivers on this board are those that enjoy the experience of the car more than others. We like to feel: the shifter as we change the gears, the bumps of the road, the control you have of the car when you go around a corner too fast/slow, etc.

[DavidB911]

Originally Posted by Tobra

That RB26TT, or whatever the old one had in it, was a bulletproof motor.

Not only that, but you could get MASSIVE power out of those motors. It wasn't uncommon to have 900+ hp. I do personally like the front of the R34, but the GTR is really ugly. There are parts of the new GTR that I like, but not worth it.

[wastintime]

Originally Posted by ToddM

Guys, the GTR is as good or FASTER than a GT3 for HALF the price. Whats Porsche going to come out with the match it at the same price point?

The GT3 has been out for several years now, the GTR was just released.

Where do you think the GTR is going to be only a few years into it's platform evolution?

The ring times don't lie

Bull*****.... and yes, ring times do lie! Just like magazine times do. Best example would be the NSX, the magazine numbers were astounding... and the car could almost do it... for 3 laps. Magazines sell cars... they are all biased, a few months ago the Z06 was the fastest car ever imagined... now that a hot new car is out, they're back to Porsche being faster than the Z06 and comparing that with the GTR... and why are they again, comparing the WORST HANDLING, most expensive 911 to the best handling nissan? Hell, the STI has great magazine numbers and is phenomenal... Subaru switched to racing the Legacy GT in rolex and grand-am because it isn't built like a kitchen sink, and actually is faster even though it's a "slower car" Hell the damn Cobalt had a ring record until someone went... oh btw, we spend $300k on the car and it was a full ground effects car...

Now, the GTR is much better than the NSX, don't get me wrong, and yes it is half the price of a GT3RS, but it IS NOT FASTER, I've driven both on race tracks, and I'm telling you the Porsche is faster. Plus look at the 996TT kicking the GTR's butt in one lap, both are highly modded race prepped cars...

Here's the end all be all point, take a 997 GT3RSR and build a comparable GTR, and the 911 will kick it's a$$ any day of the week and at that point both cars will probably be equally expensive... that's the real story. The GTR is just cheaper and inifintely easier to drive.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

The Japanese can build very good cars (and motorcycles, for that matter) but they have a big problem with image and "high end" marquee. A lot of Porsche owners pay more because it says "Porsche" on it. Snobbish and irrational, but true. Other shining examples of this are Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Aston-Martin, Maserati, Pagini, Koneigseigg, TVR, McLaren, Brabus, etc. . . The list is endless.

Point is, past a certain point, the cars are all GOOD and the pricing is not related at all to the content or the numbers. You're selling status and image. For virtually any car in the six-figure-price-tag range, you can pretty much assume you're getting a good car with pretty good numbers. Go from $100k to $200k and you'll get the BEST numbers. From $200k to $800k there isn't that much difference in performance. It's all about whose badge is on the hood and what it looks like and what the buyer lusts after.

A Nissan is still a Nissan. It won't ever have the brand status of a Porsche or a Ferrari or a Bentley - even if the raw numbers are better. If Nissan wants to build supercars and sell them for a half-million a pop, they should set up a new, high-end company that the cars are badged/marketed under. Glitzy showrooms with marble floors, high-end lighting, beautiful marketing, etc. That's what people in the $200k-and-up range pay for.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by ToddM

These are my thoughts as well. We arw now at the dawn of computers able to do everything better than a human in a normal production vehicle. Stability management has evolved to the point where it can get you throught a corner in the absolute fastest manner (this hadnt ben true until now), DSG transmissions can now shift through the gears faster, and assisted launch control providing the fastest 0-60 times.

What this does do is take take away from particular driving experiences. I wonder when the first electic start vehicles came out if there were those who had no desire to lose the crank ignition?

Nevertheless, I know I prefer the lighter curb weight, the feedback of torsion bars, the butter shifting of a proper 915, having to press in the clutch to change gears and the sounds of an air cooled flat 6. I also prefer to put my money into a platform that has PROVEN itself for durability and reliability... and due to my preferences, I will be no faster then any new common sports sedans that will be comming out in the future.

Butter shifting 915? Now I'm really confused.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by DavidB911

Not only that, but you could get MASSIVE power out of those motors. It wasn't uncommon to have 900+ hp. I do personally like the front of the R34, but the GTR is really ugly. There are parts of the new GTR that I like, but not worth it.

I hear they get 900 out of Civic motors now. I hear, but I don't see.

[Superman]

Yes, some of today's cars are astonishing. The GT-R for instance.

Sure, Porsche probably wins on measures like "style" and pedigree and longevity and aesthetics.

It wins on performance too. Right now, I'm guessing Hans Stuck in a stock GT3 would be a fair fight for any driver of a stock GT-R. Any driver in the world. But that's not a fair comparison. First, a GT3 is a normally aspirated car while the GT-R has twin turbochargers. The more fair comparison would be with a GT2, which would probably clobber a GT-R.

And finally, wolves have been nipping at Porsche's heels for decades. The best they can do is to temporarily catch up. I think we will very soon see a racing version of the Cayman. That will be a 500 hp, mid-engine car. Good luck to the GT-R.

[Superman]

Heck....I'm guessing the GT3- RSR would clobber the GT-R right now. A normally aspirated production car against the best thing from Japan with two turbochargers.

Give me a break, guys. Nissan is not going to eat Porsche's lunch any time soon.