Godzilla wins again

[Superman]

Andrew made a good point. If both cars can have two turbochargers, then let's see how the GT-R does against the more-than-one-decade-old 1997 993 Turbo S. As it turns out, Porsche has been making a GT-R killer for many years.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by Superman

Heck....I'm guessing the GT3- RSR would clobber the GT-R right now. A normally aspirated production car against the best thing from Japan with two turbochargers.

Give me a break, guys. Nissan is not going to eat Porsche's lunch any time soon.

I thought the GT3-RSR was a race car, no?

[kstar]

. . .

[ToddM]

Show me which CURRENT MODEL STREET Porsche cars are faster than a 7:29 on the ring

Theres ONE - the Carrera GT, it costs $450K.

I am speaking not for absolutes, I am speaking about what the manufacturer is offering, bang for buck. Porsche is getting it's a$$ handed to it in this market segment.

Now do you understand the point?

[ToddM]

Originally Posted by wastintime

Now, the GTR is much better than the NSX, don't get me wrong, and yes it is half the price of a GT3RS, but it IS NOT FASTER, I've driven both on race tracks, and I'm telling you the Porsche is faster. Plus look at the 996TT kicking the GTR's butt in one lap, both are highly modded race prepped cars...

Here's the end all be all point, take a 997 GT3RSR and build a comparable GTR, and the 911 will kick it's a$$ any day of the week and at that point both cars will probably be equally expensive... that's the real story. The GTR is just cheaper and inifintely easier to drive.

You are comparing a race car with a street car?

What is the TTs ring lap time? What is the GTRs ring lap time? The GTR is cheaper and faster in every regard. Oh and look at the GT-R V spec 7:25 beating the Carrera GT unofficially by 3 seonds.

7:24 Lexus LF-A Concept ~552 PS/~1360 kg 2007-12-28 Auto Express Winding Road Unofficial time measured by bystanders at the track
7:25 Nissan GT-R V-Spec ~551 PS/~1590 kg 2008-04-08 Car Magazine autoblog.com Unofficial time measured by bystanders at the track
7:27.82 Pagani Zonda F Clubsport 650 PS/1230 kg 2007-09 video Semi-wet conditions.
7:28 Porsche Carrera GT 612 PS/1380 kg Walter Röhrl 2004 Autobild 07/04
7:29 Nissan GT-R 480 hp/1740 kg Toshio Suzuki 2008-04-16 *manufacturer claim.Press release Standard run-flat tires. Dry track.
7:32.02* Porsche 997 GT2 2008 530 PS/1440 kg Walter Röhrl 2007 *manufacturer claim.Motor Authority, video Semi-slicks tires.


Glad I am not in Porsche sales

[Porsche-O-Phile]

You're missing the point. A Nissan - even one with impressive numbers - is still "just a Datsun". It'll always be "just a Datsun". As such, it'll never have the image, the sex appeal, the upper-crusty snob-appeal (or whatever you want to call it) that enables them to charge 3X or 4X as much for the same car just because a particular name is on it.

And THAT is where the "exotic" guys make their money.

[ToddM]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

You're missing the point. A Nissan - even one with impressive numbers - is still "just a Datsun". It'll always be "just a Datsun". As such, it'll never have the image, the sex appeal, the upper-crusty snob-appeal (or whatever you want to call it) that enables them to charge 3X or 4X as much for the same car just because a particular name is on it.

And THAT is where the "exotic" guys make their money.

You just made my point for me.. the only reason to buy one is the "look at me, I can waste my money" factor

[nostatic]

I'm confused as to your point then. A GT3 gets outperformed by the Nissan but costs 2x the money. Some would argue that the look/style of the Porsche is worth the extra money. Style is worth extra cost to some people. To others it isn't.

There isn't much for Porsche to "respond to." Their cars outperform most cars on the road and look better than the Nissan. There ya have it.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Mule

I hear they get 900 out of Civic motors now. I hear, but I don't see.

I have seen hondas like that, Bugs too, but you have to tear them down and rebuild them pretty often. They break a lot of CV joints and driveshafts too.

900 hp R34 GTR will run a looooong time between rebuilds, transmission is pretty stout too.

[onewhippedpuppy]

I find it very amusing that we have people claiming that a 997 GT2 or GT3, and even a 993TT are quicker than a GTR. I know this is a Porsche BBS, but c'mon guys, the Ring times don't lie. You're talking factory prepped cars with factory drivers. If Walter Rohrl can't beat the GTR in a GT2, who will? How's life in the land of denial?

Though it may pain some of you physically, from a performance standpoint the GTR is staggering at any price. That it is $70k only makes it more amazing. It's faster than just about everything else out there, and will probably prove to be more reliable than anything from Europe. Yes, it's ugly, but that ugly has a purpose. It has an amazingly low CD (0.27 if I recall correctly), that ugly came from the wind tunnel. Everything on that car is for the single purpose of going fast, even though road tests report that it's very docile and comfortable around town.

I wouldn't buy one. Yes, that's right, I think it's a spectacular car, but I wouldn't buy one. You guys get all worked up about Porsche vs GTR, GTR Ring numbers, etc, but isn't that missing the point? Sure, Porsches have always been fast, but so have many other cars. It's that unique connection to the road, the "oneness" with the cars that makes a Porsche special. The GTR is super-fast, but it's just a rolling mainframe. Everything you do has to go through some sort of algorithm before the car reacts. The car does as much driving as you do, definitely not what Porsche is about.

So why not put a stop to these retarded e-pissing matches? Respect the GTR for what it is, a super-fast exercise in technology. Then take your Porsche for a drive, and remember what makes them so special. Of course, what the hell do I know, I don't have a GTR OR a Porsche.

[Superman]

Porsche has won LeMans fifteen times. Let me know when this Nissan GT-R gets its first win.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by Superman

Porsche has won LeMans fifteen times. Let me know when this Nissan GT-R gets its first win.

Well, you gotta start somewhere.

But, I agree, let's see what they do with it.

[ToddM]

Nice post whipped

I agree, for me it is about the experience and so far nothing for me tops the experience and feedback of a torsion bar air cooled rear mounted flat 6. I also prefer the classic styling.

I dont get this experience from a new Porsche, which begs the question - why blindly buy a new Porsche? They aren't reliable cars and they have about as much feedback as BMW


It is amazing how many people loose their mind as soon as you bring up how there maybe be something BETTER

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by Superman

Porsche has won LeMans fifteen times. Let me know when this Nissan GT-R gets its first win.

Not LeMans... but not too shabby...

http://www.datsunhistory.com/Racehistory1.html

[Mule]

Originally Posted by Tobra

I have seen hondas like that, Bugs too, but you have to tear them down and rebuild them pretty often. They break a lot of CV joints and driveshafts too.

900 hp R34 GTR will run a looooong time between rebuilds, transmission is pretty stout too.

Physics being physics, any 900hp 6 cyl will need regular attention.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Matt, you're describing the difference between "design" (including architecture - shameless plug) and "engineering" very well.

Something can be "engineered" to be functionally terrific, perform well against quantitative benchmarks and specifications, etc. But a lot of times this results in things that (although functionally good) are boring, unappealing and as exciting as a box of rocks. Good design still does well on the quantitative side and meets its specs, but it speaks to you as a sculptural or artistic objet d'art also. It moves you. It makes your heart beat faster. It takes your breath away.

That's passion. That's the difference.

And yes, there are those among us who think it's worth something and will pay a premium for it.

Think of how utterly soulless and boring the world would be if it were simply all "engineered" and practical. The sex appeal of Porsche is precisely in how impractical they are. Perhaps the ultimate manifestation of this is Ferrari/Lamborghini, with their "over-the-top", obnoxiously bold styling and "in-your-face" colors. They sell. Because they invoke PASSION.

That's where the Japanese cars largely fall on their faces. They're good, reliable, well-made, etc. But they're exciting as a night at home watching "Ishtar".

[ToddM]

I guess replacing engines and tramissions in warranty constitues "exciting" exciting that your new Porsche could actually strand you at any time.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

You can be rear-ended by some idiot SUV-driving moron at any time too in any vehicle. What's the point here?

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

You can be rear-ended by some idiot SUV-driving moron at any time too in any vehicle. What's the point here?

yeah, I'm having trouble figuring that out as well...

Seems that we have established that the Nissan is faster and cheaper, and that modern Porsches are more stylish but aren't as reliable as Hyundais or Toyotas.

That about the gist?

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by Mule

Physics being physics, any 900hp 6 cyl will need regular attention.

That makes me wonder how reliable all those 800/900/1000 hp "tuner" 996/997's I see in Excellence magazine are.