What's worse than a Walmart in your backyard?

idontknow · 08-19-2008, 11:44 PM

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-3rpm.6547307aug17,0,5038048.story

Some people should be careful what the wish for.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

I was going to say not having one.

Having a Walmart, Lowes or Home Depot affects a few small businesses, but on the balance provides much more to the people in an area by volume and low prices.

Yes, it is tragic when a small business shuts down. But the small grocery stores have, and we have larger and better and cheaper food with the Super Markets.

Jim Richards · 08-20-2008, 02:50 AM

"Neidlinger said the shredding operation is a payback for opposition to the Wal-Mart project."

Right. Wal-Mart arranged for the shredding plant to take its place. Right. If a bunch of home owners move into houses that backup to an industrial park, they should expect that some industry might settle in there. I guess they figured they had the right to pick and choose who/what goes there.

onewhippedpuppy · 08-20-2008, 04:32 AM

Doh!

Gogar · 08-20-2008, 07:04 AM

Reminds me of when they build housing developments out by the airport, and then the homeowners band together to complain about all the airplane noise.

Jims5543 · 08-20-2008, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gogar

Reminds me of when they build housing developments out by the airport, and then the homeowners band together to complain about all the airplane noise.

That is happening here in Stuart Florida. Everyone moves in around the ancient airfield that predates WWII and was the only thing in the area 70 years ago. Now they want it gone.

I bought a house that my property backs up to RR Tracks I am thinking that I need to make the trains go away now.

onewhippedpuppy · 08-20-2008, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gogar

Reminds me of when they build housing developments out by the airport, and then the homeowners band together to complain about all the airplane noise.

That makes me really angry. I believe we had an OT debate on that some time back. NIMBY only works when you are first. It takes a lot of arrogance to move in next to an airport, then expect the airport to go away because it offends your sensitive ears.

wilke3169 · 08-20-2008, 07:15 AM

A buddy of mine bought a couple of acres and a double wide, yes a double wide, that backed up to farm land for his parents to retire in. The farm land is now a very nice golf course. ...Some gotta win some gotta lose...

304065 · 08-20-2008, 07:46 AM

Guys, this is a very OLD problem. Look up a case called Webb v. Spur Industries, in which Del Webb located the original Sun City downwind of a cattle feedlot.

The Judge, a brilliant guy named Posner, came up with the idea of "reverse damages" e.g. rather than using the old "pigovian" concept of nuisance, he instead said the remedy was for the affected homeowners to pay the feedlot to relocate its operations somewhere else.

This was a major practical application of a nobel-prize winning concept in economics called the Coase Theorem, which says, paraphrased, that the allocation of legal entitlements to be free of nuisances like noise does not matter if transactions costs are sufficiently low: the efficient outcome will be reached regardless. Paraphrasing that further, it basically means that the parties will bribe one another to make each other happy.

So the solution in this case is simple: the affected homeowners should form a homeowners association and have a capital call to pay the factory to relocate elsewhere.

(Of course some would be more benefited than others. . . which gets into the classic collective action problem/ tragedy of the commons. There's a reason they give out Nobel prizes for this stuff. . . )

The old-school "pigovian" analysis would suggest that the homeowners have a legal entitlement to be free of noise and can force the shredding operation to shut down. However, the value of their residences was presumably below comparable properties NOT next to an industrial park, so enforcing that legal "entitlement" effectively results in a windfall gain for the residents, and a loss for the shredding company. Since transaction costs are LOW, in this case the parties are both alive and can be reasonably identified, then an economic transfer is the right thing to do.

Ahh Law and Economics. . . my favorite diversion. . .

David McLaughlin · David McLaughlin's Garage

People have such closed minds to what's in their town.

My town of Burlington fought to exclude a Shaws market from going in where a delapitated old strip plaza shoot mostly empty. Instead of embrasing, they fought. Finally Shaws won and they did a wonderful job of cleaning up the intersections, planting trees and a grassy area plus of course demoing the eyesour and building a new more pleasing looking building. Now we have a local market to boot.

Next town over in Billerica, Home Depot wants in. Town says no; it will create too much traffic and will put the local hordware store out of business. Traffic already stinks on the main road and could only be made better with some new deep pockets. The Hardware store isn't so hot anyway, The service is bad, the priices high and the hours are short. If it were up to me, I'd have HD pay for a new intersection of roadway and build a park on some adjacent land for the kiddies.

To the article posted above, they got what they asked for.

Sapporo Guy · 08-21-2008, 12:31 AM

People are not necessarily always smart

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

What you guys are talking about is what's known as the CUP (Conditional Use Permit) or "entitlement" process. This is typically a horse trading session between city planners or other local officials and a prospective developer. Typically a developer will go to a city with a proposal to construct project "X". The city will then create a laundry list of other stuff they want the developer to do in order to get the city to sign off on the project (e.g. stuff like improving roads, installing new street lights, installing new traffic signals, off-site landscaping, etc.)

This usually goes back-and-forth several times until the developer has gotten it down to a point he/she thinks is acceptable to still make the project profitable and the city still gets what they think is a bunch of "freebies" from the developer in terms of municipal improvements.

This happens every day.

onlycafe · 08-21-2008, 09:02 AM

what's worse than a walmart in your backyard?
how about a walmart and a casino?

Superman · 08-21-2008, 09:29 AM

Since development puts a burden on infrastructure, local agencies tend to require that the developer include the infrastructure costs in their plan. Either that, or the city/couty has to pay for it. New lanes, new traffic signals, etc.

Walmart pushes the envelope. It is VERY aggressive. Sure, we admire aggressiveness but Walmart takes it to a new level. The way it treats its competitors. The way it treats its suppliers. The way it treats its workforce. And so, Walmart is illustrating the importance of some economic principles that seem to temporarily elude certain folks at times. In the absence of controls (regulations), Walmart is going to put not only local business in the morgue, it's going to do the same to K-Mart and several other national chains. It will become the only store of its kind. Its business model creates some 'good' impacts on the community that are on the surface and easy to see. And it creates some 'bad' impacts that are less obvious. What proportion of Walmart employees use your tax dollars for their "health care plan?" What proportion of Walmart's profits stay in the community? What are the total earnings of your community's sales and clerk staff before, and after, a Walmart installation? Does Walmart create jobs........or do they simply transfer them from medium-pay jobs to low-pay jobs?

Ever play the game called Monopoly? What does the end of the game look like?

onlycafe · 08-21-2008, 02:08 PM

i don't know if this is true or not, but, i heard that the big new super walmarts are given all kinds of tax plums, such as large property tax concessions, and that they also are granted a sales tax bonus as well. [they collect the sales tax and are allowed to keep it.]
anyone know what the story is here?

strupgolf · 08-21-2008, 02:28 PM

I love the dumbass who asks, after living at the end of the runway for a few months, what those damm airplanes are doing landing where he lives. He then sues to stop the noise, buy his house, or close the airport. Fricking amazing to me, but this is America.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superman

Ever play the game called Monopoly? What does the end of the game look like?

I's called "Monopoly" for a reason. And it was devleoped by an out of work, worker, who wanted to illustrate the evils of Capitalism.

ANYTHING in it's extreme fom is wrong.

Take the middle path...

cl8ton · 08-21-2008, 11:11 PM

Dunno, how bout section 8 apartments ???