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Quote:
Originally Posted by trekkor View Post
Oh?

Do you know what is going to happen in Cern, Kang? Don't you think experiments should have a predictable outcome?

I believe doing something, just for the sake of doing it, is reckless.

They are not dropping baking soda in a vinegar filled test tube, Kang, they are violently tearing apart the most powerful and unknown units in the known universe.

Aren't their own words something to the effect of creating the same conditions the split second after the Big Bang?

That doesn't sound 'harmless' at all.


KT
We are already creating similar conditions to the "Big Bang" and aside from radiation issues (which is controlled through properly shielding), it is harmless.

Hopefully we (Fermilab) can find the Higgs before things really get rolling at CERN.

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Old 09-08-2008, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trekkor View Post
Oh?

Do you know what is going to happen in Cern, Kang? Don't you think experiments should have a predictable outcome?

I believe doing something, just for the sake of doing it, is reckless.

They are not dropping baking soda in a vinegar filled test tube, Kang, they are violently tearing apart the most powerful and unknown units in the known universe.

Aren't their own words something to the effect of creating the same conditions the split second after the Big Bang?

That doesn't sound 'harmless' at all.

KT
Every post you make on any subject remotely related to science just exposes your ignorance, not only on the subject matter, but also on science itself, and the scientific process.

Like I said above, if they knew exactly what was going to happen, why would they conduct the experiment? In cases like this, they have mathematical models, mathematical predictions, as to what should happen. They run the experiment to confirm or deny their mathematical predications. If they confirm one, or some, of the predictions, then they have reason to believe that the other predictions that the models make are correct. If they don’t confirm the predictions, then they have to start over with new mathematical models. But they won’t know until they run the experiment.

If we never did things just for the sack of doing it, we probably would have never invented fire. If fire were to be invented today, I can see people like you shouting about the dangers of such a horrible, uncontrollable thing. You’d fear it would burn up the entire world. You would claim it was the work of the devil. You would claim that unless we knew exactly what would happen, we should never ignite that very first fire.

There are always “experts” that predict doom and gloom for things like this. They predicted doom and gloom for travelling to the moon, for the Manhattan project and other such experiments. They have always been wrong, and they are wrong this time.

As for the safety concerns of a micro black hole: remember, the gravitational pull of an object is directly proportional to its mass. The mass of a micro black hole, say one or two subatomic particles, is very very small. The gravitational pull of such an object will be trillions and trillions of times less than say, the computer monitor you are looking at right now.

Again, just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
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Old 09-08-2008, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Bonkalski View Post
We are already creating similar conditions to the "Big Bang" and aside from radiation issues (which is controlled through properly shielding), it is harmless.

Hopefully we (Fermilab) can find the Higgs before things really get rolling at CERN.
Do you know Tony Liss from UofI? I took his Atomic class when they found the Top quark. He was teaching 2 or 3 days a week, then jetted up to Fermi. Every Monday we were being taught stuff that they had discovered 2 days earlier. Very heady stuff!
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Old 09-08-2008, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by trekkor View Post
In thinking about it, splitting atoms has not been the best thing for mankind.

If I had to guess, I'd suspect these tests are likely for creating the next generation of 'super weapons'.


KT
Splitting of atoms has benefited man much more so that it has harmed.

Go Fermilab!!
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Old 09-08-2008, 07:57 AM
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Stijn?

Are you serious?

Maybe PPOT is something more than I had realized.
The place where the mysteries of the universe are realized by the greatest minds human history has ever known...And one troll.

Stijn, correct me if I'm wrong. Aren't you the self proclaimed local LSD expert/advocate?


KT
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Old 09-08-2008, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Mo_Gearhead View Post
QUOTE: "Anybody else see this thread and read "Large Hardon Collider"? I couldn't help but click."
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OMG ...latent tendencies? Not you Matt!!!! Say it ain't so bro!!!!!?????
Yep, sounded like the next evolutionary step of Blacks on Blonds.

I scoff at black holes!
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:01 AM
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maybe some hardcore rappers can help trek out?

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Old 09-08-2008, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pazuzu View Post
Do you know Tony Liss from UofI? I took his Atomic class when they found the Top quark. He was teaching 2 or 3 days a week, then jetted up to Fermi. Every Monday we were being taught stuff that they had discovered 2 days earlier. Very heady stuff!
Tony is a researcher/user at CDF. I know of him, but never worked with him directly.
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:07 AM
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Kang, you can insult me all day long.

Bottom line is, the outcome of the experiments is a guess and so is the outcome if something goes wrong.

Face it!


Just like the first atomic bombs. They weren't 100% on what was going to happen, but they were happy to gamble on it.

Quote:
Splitting of atoms has benefited man much more so that it has harmed.
Mike, that comment is hardly a statement of fact. It's a just an opinion without a definitive answer.


KT
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trekkor View Post
Kang, you can insult me all day long.

Bottom line is, the outcome of the experiments is a guess and so is the outcome if something goes wrong.

Face it!

Just like the first atomic bombs. They weren't 100% on what was going to happen, but they were happy to gamble on it.

Mike, that comment is hardly a statement of fact. It's a just an opinion without a definitive answer.

KT
No, they are not guessing. They have very precise mathematical models that predict a range of various results.

The very first paragraph of the Wiki site you posted says this:

Quote:
Two CERN-commissioned reports[4][5] have reviewed the safety of the LHC particle collisions and concluded that there is no basis for any conceivable threat.[6][7] The consensus in the scientific community is that experiments at the LHC present no danger and that there is no reason for concern.[8]
Your fear comes from your lack of understanding.
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:19 AM
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I never said I was afraid, Kang.

I said they don't know what is going to happen.
Do they they have a failsafe if something goes horribly wrong?

Do they?


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Old 09-08-2008, 08:28 AM
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http://www.uslhc.us/


Safety aside. Are the experiments looking for the 'force' that holds together all matter in the universe?


KT
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by trekkor View Post
Mike, that comment is hardly a statement of fact. It's a just an opinion without a definitive answer.
Well, then to quantify my statement, I would suspect that the power generated from nuclear plants has benefited quite a few folks. Look what nuclear medicine has done for man. Everything from treating cancer to imaging techniques. My Dad received a dose of radioactive iodine back in the 1960s that corrected a life-threatening thyroid problem.

Nuclear techniques are also used to better understand materials. Everything from high-temperature superconductivity (a whopping 55K now!!) to understanding how materials pass through cell membranes. Splitting of atoms is currently being used to develop the next generation of magnetic storage devices (hard drives). Alot of people use hard drives. It is also used to design better welds by allowing a better understanding of internal stresses.

All from splitting atoms.
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by trekkor View Post
http://www.uslhc.us/


Safety aside. Are the experiments looking for the 'force' that holds together all matter in the universe?


KT
No. From my limited understanding, the LHC will hopefully bolster the Standard Model and provide insight into what gives particles mass. We don't really understand that right now.
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:51 AM
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Mike, thanks for the post. Yes, there are are quite a bit of things that seem to benefit mankind, you are correct.

I guess my thinking was clouded by the ever present threat of nuclear war.
We're not out of those woods, yet.


KT
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:51 AM
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I'll state that I'm tickled pink about the possibility of finding the Higgs particle, because it would be a strong support mechanism for the current Inflationary Theory. As such, it should get rid of that annoying argument against the Big Bang..."how can you create the Universe out of nothing?".

This experiment will also create a strange, dynamic link between the Standard Model, General Relativity, Special Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. All 4 of these incongruent theories must prove to be relatively correct for this Higgs production to take place. All 4 are going to be pushed to their current limits...something scary and fascinating. It will also put another feather in the cap of Human Capability, that these 4 theories could be found, calculated, understood, extrapolated upon and then verified, all by us lowly little specs.
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
As such, it should get rid of that annoying argument against the Big Bang..."how can you create the Universe out of nothing?".
Here we go!



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Old 09-08-2008, 08:57 AM
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Here we go!
KT
Nope. I said nothing of the existence or lack thereof of a Prime Mover, nor of the potential Forces that put things in motion. The Higgs particle infers a Higgs field, which was postulated to exist before the Big Bang. The massive inherent energy in this field (coming from the massive mass of the particle) could easily feed the Inflationary Universe. The total energy of the field is still zero, but it rapid fluctuates between positive and negative energy because of the quantum fluctuations (yes, negative energy exists, you see it everyday when something falls to the ground...gravity can be a negative energy field). The Universe could have spawned from a section of the Higgs field when it was in a positive swing.

The existence of the big Bang does not prove or disprove anything about God. However, the Higgs particle can get rid of the somewhat childish response from people of "how can you create the Universe out of nothing?". Well, it wasn't created out of nothing, it was created out of the properties of the God particle.


None of the above is a statement of fact, it is a statement of my current understanding of the modern Inflationary Theory, my discounting of some of the side "multi-verse" theories, and my understanding of the 30+ year search for the Higgs.
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trekkor View Post
Stijn?

Are you serious?

Maybe PPOT is something more than I had realized.
The place where the mysteries of the universe are realized by the greatest minds human history has ever known...And one troll.

Stijn, correct me if I'm wrong. Aren't you the self proclaimed local LSD expert/advocate?


KT

well, maybe you should eat some acid, maybe that would open your mind a bit...
if anyone can use it, your that one...

you fail to deliver the most basic arguments
you yourself said, i'm not against it or for it.. yet all you do is bring weak "boohooo, it might be dangerous, but i don't know why, just that some smart people said so, no i don't know who, or where, or what would make them smart "


PPOT is many things, but if you going to talk, try to understand what you talk about, and be consistent...
i may occasionally yap about lsd.. but i can, because i have eaten it, i know what it is... and i'm ok to not take it seriously... and use it in in a context of this thread, in response to the boogey man stories by the likes of yourself, who keeps talking about what if it would go wrong with the collider, who keeps pressing, yet can't even say why he thinks he keeps pressing, or fails to link up with the arguments why the collider thing is an important thing that mightl answer many things..

all you said so far, was " they shouldn't do it just for the sake of doing it"



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Old 09-08-2008, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
maybe you should eat some acid,
I stopped doing that over 20 years ago.

FAIL?


KT

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Old 09-08-2008, 09:09 AM
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