Pilots who 'get it' vs pilots that are trained

[HardDrive]

Can you train a pilot? Or are pilots born?

I was reading the story about the Cogan pilots driving their plane into the ground....it bugged me. All the stories were about their lack of training. WTF? Maintaining airspeed? Really? Being a commercial pilot, you have to trained to maintain airspeed?. Dunno. That struck me as crazy. How could they not understand that...how could they not feel it?

I do not have a pilots license. Never owned an airplane. Never took a lesson, at least one that I paid for. But from the time I was in diapers, my butt was in the seat of a Piper Cub flying across the fields of Southern Michigan.

I'll spare you the rest of my nostalgic BS. Can you take just anyone and make them a pilot? Is that what the airline industry does? Your not training folks to trade stocks, or do surgery, or develop software...those task attract some brilliant folks. But thats not the point. Being a pilot (at least in my Piper Cub fantasy world) requires some 'feel' for it. Some understanding of the poetry.

So set me straight. Does a modern airline pilot simply work off an infinitely large flow chart that tells them the correct reaction to take given a certain set of inputs? Or do most of them 'get it'? If you switched off every instrument in 737, could the average pilot put the thing on the ground?

Sorry for the crazy ramble, but I still remember my grandfather killing the engine of his Cub a mile above the cornfields of Michigan, and just drifting with nothing but the sound of the wind and our laughter....and I end up contemplating these odd issues....forgive me.

[BlueSideUp]

There is a lot you can't feel in a transport category airplane. It's very different from flying a Cub. You can't even hear or sense the engines in the airplane I fly on takeoff.

There are those that "get it" as you say and unfortunately there are those that don't. No you can't just take anyone and make them a pilot. My wife can't drive a stick shift and probably never will, there are a large majority of people who could never figure out flying an airplane.

Every person sitting in the front of an airliner has been through a significant amount of training. It baffles me why the Colgan crew made those fundamental mistakes. There definitely are less people that "get it" than in the past. In the past pilots spent a significant amount of time flying freight, flight instructing, banner towing, etc. before getting into an airliner. Many airlines reduced their hiring minimums to fill classes and people were pushed through. The captain on the Colgan airplane apparently went through an ab initio training program. Basically you pay a bunch of money to a school and go from 0 hours to right seat of an airliner. According to the FAA rules a person like that has all the same certifications as any other airline pilot. Does that mean they are just as good? Maybe or maybe not. The maybe nots should be flushed out by the system.

Any pilot has felt the hair stand up on their neck as something didn't feel right. I know the deck angles and sounds my aircraft makes at each phase of flight, I know when something is wrong. I can tell with my eyes closed if the aircraft I'm flying is one of the oldest or one of the newest my airline operates. When flying a new aircraft I am especially vigilant to heed the advice of those more experienced whether it's the written word or advice passed down. It's my job to be good at what I do. Am I Chuck Yeager? No I just have paid attention to people smarter than myself.

The reality is that reduced benefits and compensation have driven a lot of the best away from the airline industry. I certainly didn't feel respected or properly compensated when I was earning less than $20K a year. Why do I do it? Because I love flying but for a lot of pilots that love isn't balanced by being able to lead a normal life.

For those that say pilots should just leave if they don't like where the industry has gone don't really understand what it takes to sit at the pointy end of an airplane. Years of training, years of commitment, and a lot of financial strain. There used to be a carrot at the end of all the effort but that's gone. At some point it makes sense to give up on all that commitment and training by leaving the industry, I just haven't reached it yet. Hopefully things will change to keep the good people in this industry. We need more Sullys and Skiles but they aren't going to stick around at this rate.

Because there aren't as many clues to speed in a jet as in a Piper Cub it would be pretty difficult to fly a 737 without instruments. There have been several accidents attributable to instrument failures in jets. These accidents usually happen when someone leaves the pitot covers on or tape on the static ports.

You've got to love the simplicity of the fuel gauge in a Piper Cub! I can't find a pic but the fuel tank sits in front of the cockpit. The fuel cap has a hole in the middle and a piece of wire bent at a 90 degree angle. The other end of the wire is attached to a float.

Learning is defined as a change in behavior as a result of experience. So when someone tells me how experienced they are I often wonder if they've learned anything from it.

[Hard-Deck]

Nope, not everyone can be trained to be a pilot, surgeon, sniper, phychiatrist. All professions require a certain set of skills and personality profile.

Some people could learn how to 'fly' an airplane, but never would 'learn' beyond that to anticipate problems, manage the cockpit, manage the crew, fly and talk on the radio at the same time.

[onewhippedpuppy]

I've spent my entire life around pilots and flying. There are those that should be pilots, and those that should not. Sadly, some that should not are sitting in the front of the plane. Every pilot has a story of the co-worker, student, or friend that should simply NOT be flying. Sometimes those stories end in an accident or realization, sometimes they end in tragedy.

[Moses]

Originally Posted by BlueSideUp

There used to be a carrot at the end of all the effort but that's gone. At some point it makes sense to give up on all that commitment and training by leaving the industry, I just haven't reached it yet. Hopefully things will change to keep the good people in this industry.

The answer is pretty obvious. Money. I want to keep the best and the brightest in the cockpit. Pilots should make GOOD money. How much would it cost? An extra $10/ticket? I'll gladly pay.

[Rot 911]

There's a reason why airlines like to hire pilots from the military. First off they all have lots of flight hours. Second, in the military, you train for emergencies.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by Moses

The answer is pretty obvious. Money. I want to keep the best and the brightest in the cockpit. Pilots should make GOOD money. How much would it cost? An extra $10/ticket? I'll gladly pay.

I couldn't agree more.

[red-beard]

I do not disagree with anything being said here. But we are not making the decisions.

Unfortunately, since there are fare sales around the year, people in the country think they are being ripped off, if they cannot fly from the West coast to the East coast for $200-300. I am serious. Anytime my sister pays more than $250 for a flight, she thinks she is being ripped off.

Just compare that cost to driving cross country. 3000 miles at 20 MPG is 150 gallons of gas, not to mention food, and wear and tear, time, etc.

But there it is, like it or not. I am all for cutting the food, blankets, and other ammenities. I am willing to pay for those items, if necessary. But we need the safety systems in place. We need well paid crew to keep safe.

Again, I think the main problem is people's expectations. And we had this discussion in the healthcare thread.

[Danimal16]

I'm instrument rated and don't fly anymore for the reasons cited above by the pros. I admit it, there is a "Knack" that the best have. I enjoyed it but what about the safety of the passengers?

The guys that get it are not just pushing around a multi-million dollar machine. They are the Captains and responsible for the safety of the crew and passengers. That is about as high end responsible as you can get. So keep those that are the best, and if that means pay, so be it.

I wonder if you look at the decision making process regarding passenger airlines, just who sits where at the table. Does the Lawyer sit there? What about the bean counters? Where is the chief pilot and where is the flight safety guy, not to mention the O&M guy? Anybody do that kind of stuff that would expose them to the board room layout?

[Heel n Toe]

All this discussion reminds me of Ches Sullenberger... a lot of the reason he was able to finesse that bird down to a safe ditch in the Hudson is because he "gets it." He loves sailplanes.

I saw a news segment saying pilots in those smaller, connector airlines are only making $20K a year? Good grief. I know it shouldn't be all about the money, but that's ridiculously low, IMO.

[fingpilot]

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

All this discussion reminds me of Ches Sullenberger... a lot of the reason he was able to finesse that bird down to a safe ditch in the Hudson is because he "gets it." He loves sailplanes.

I saw a news segment saying pilots in those smaller, connector airlines are only making $20K a year? Good grief. I know it shouldn't be all about the money, but that's ridiculously low, IMO.

+1. And it's not $20K.

It's $16K.

[fingpilot]

Originally Posted by BlueSideUp

There is a lot you can't feel in a transport category airplane. It's very different from flying a Cub. You can't even hear or sense the engines in the airplane I fly on takeoff.

There are those that "get it" as you say and unfortunately there are those that don't. No you can't just take anyone and make them a pilot. My wife can't drive a stick shift and probably never will, there are a large majority of people who could never figure out flying an airplane.

Every person sitting in the front of an airliner has been through a significant amount of training. It baffles me why the Colgan crew made those fundamental mistakes. There definitely are less people that "get it" than in the past. In the past pilots spent a significant amount of time flying freight, flight instructing, banner towing, etc. before getting into an airliner. Many airlines reduced their hiring minimums to fill classes and people were pushed through. The captain on the Colgan airplane apparently went through an ab initio training program. Basically you pay a bunch of money to a school and go from 0 hours to right seat of an airliner. According to the FAA rules a person like that has all the same certifications as any other airline pilot. Does that mean they are just as good? Maybe or maybe not. The maybe nots should be flushed out by the system.

Any pilot has felt the hair stand up on their neck as something didn't feel right. I know the deck angles and sounds my aircraft makes at each phase of flight, I know when something is wrong. I can tell with my eyes closed if the aircraft I'm flying is one of the oldest or one of the newest my airline operates. When flying a new aircraft I am especially vigilant to heed the advice of those more experienced whether it's the written word or advice passed down. It's my job to be good at what I do. Am I Chuck Yeager? No I just have paid attention to people smarter than myself.

The reality is that reduced benefits and compensation have driven a lot of the best away from the airline industry. I certainly didn't feel respected or properly compensated when I was earning less than $20K a year. Why do I do it? Because I love flying but for a lot of pilots that love isn't balanced by being able to lead a normal life.

For those that say pilots should just leave if they don't like where the industry has gone don't really understand what it takes to sit at the pointy end of an airplane. Years of training, years of commitment, and a lot of financial strain. There used to be a carrot at the end of all the effort but that's gone. At some point it makes sense to give up on all that commitment and training by leaving the industry, I just haven't reached it yet. Hopefully things will change to keep the good people in this industry. We need more Sullys and Skiles but they aren't going to stick around at this rate.

Because there aren't as many clues to speed in a jet as in a Piper Cub it would be pretty difficult to fly a 737 without instruments. There have been several accidents attributable to instrument failures in jets. These accidents usually happen when someone leaves the pitot covers on or tape on the static ports.

You've got to love the simplicity of the fuel gauge in a Piper Cub! I can't find a pic but the fuel tank sits in front of the cockpit. The fuel cap has a hole in the middle and a piece of wire bent at a 90 degree angle. The other end of the wire is attached to a float.

Learning is defined as a change in behavior as a result of experience. So when someone tells me how experienced they are I often wonder if they've learned anything from it.

36 years; 21,770 hours; no accidents, no incidents, no violations, no scratched paint, no injuries...... and you have just distilled my career down in one post.

Could not have said it better. I thought I was the only one that could tell the new birds from the old by feel.....

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by fingpilot

+1. And it's not $20K.

It's $16K.

Unreal.

People here make more than that sitting out front of the liquor store with their cap on the ground.

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by Dottore

People here make more than that sitting out front of the liquor store with their cap on the ground.

I don't recall telling you how much I make.

Originally Posted by BlueSideUp

You've got to love the simplicity of the fuel gauge in a Piper Cub! I can't find a pic but the fuel tank sits in front of the cockpit. The fuel cap has a hole in the middle and a piece of wire bent at a 90 degree angle. The other end of the wire is attached to a float.

A photo of the fuel 'gauge' on a piper cub. Thanks for the memory, I forgot about that!

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I made just barely over $20k a year for flying cargo (usually sacks full of bank checks and cash for ATM deposits, as well as UPS feeder stuff). This was for being up before dawn every single day, out there in the weather (rain, sleet, cold, whatever) to preflight, load my own cargo and fly off to some god-foresaken corner of the world, then sit around there all day in some dumpy hotel or crappy company apartment, and in the evening do the opposite route finally getting home at about 9 or 10 at night, only a few hours before having to be back at the airport to do it again.

Often the flights were single-pilot IFR, in nasty conditions, in dilapidated, 40+ year old airplanes with torn seats, beat-up avionics and many, many cycles on them.

However, it was also the best job I ever had. I'd do it again in a heartbeat, because I loved the flying. Unfortunately the love of flying affords sleazeball businesses with a "carrot" to manipulate people with - exactly what happened to me and what happens to many others. The line they spew is, "think of all the valuable experience you're getting - that has a value that you should consider in addition to what your [meager] paycheck is..."

Yes, it's a stinkload of B.S. But there are people (like me) that will line up around the block for the opportunity because we LOVE TO FLY. I used to say (and still do) that a bad day flying was better than the best day sitting in an office somewhere. There are a lot of people who believe that and it allows the carriers to lowball their pilots and be "carrot danglers". The "carrot" is the promise of "someday" making it into the left seat of that commercial jet with the six-figure paycheck and the 10-day-a-month flight schedule because of all the "valuable experience" you're getting by eating turd sandwiches and working for less than an In-n-Out Burger employee today.

Most guys never make it that far. It's a tough, gritty, dirty, sleazy industry. But a lot of us put up with it because we LOVE TO FLY.

I will do it again in a heartbeat. Gladly. So maybe I'm the problem. Or maybe the industry's eagerness to exploit my enthusiasm is the problem. Or maybe both.

[Embraer]

S.j.s.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Moses

The answer is pretty obvious. Money. I want to keep the best and the brightest in the cockpit. Pilots should make GOOD money. How much would it cost? An extra $10/ticket? I'll gladly pay.

Doctors are paid well because their profession requires constant training, has high stress, little room for error, and can involve life or death decisions. Pilots should receive the same respect. A bad doctor could potentially kill one person. A bad pilot could potentially kill 400+.

Jeff, I can't think of a better way to make a living. If I didn't have a family, I would seriously consider flying as a career.

[john70t]

I'm not a pilot, but play one in IL2 1946(WW2 video game).
The difficult planes to fly in that sim are the dashboards with the essential guages spread out. I perfer those with altimeter, airspeed, and artificial horizon front and center.

Cockpits could benefit from a little more simplicity, and easier to read guages for good ergonimics.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by john70t

I'm not a pilot, but play one in IL2 1946(WW2 video game).
The difficult planes to fly in that sim are the dashboards with the essential guages spread out. I perfer those with altimeter, airspeed, and artificial horizon front and center.

Cockpits could benefit from a little more simplicity, and easier to read guages for good ergonimics.

There's a HUGE push to simplify the cockpit and automate systems to reduce pilot workload, therefore increasing his focus on flying the plane. Dark cockpits, increased focus on ergonomics/human factors, system automation, it's all with the goal of making flying easier and safer. Here's one of our single pilot jets (a bit simpler than a WWII fighter).



Pilatus PC-12NG interior (very nice) that was designed with help from BMW Designworks:

[widgeon13]

I fly as an avocation and own my own plane, know my limitations and work to stay within those limits, sometimes it's easier than others. I wish I had done it for a career but things did not work out for me in that direction. I had a father in law that flew a Widgeon for 48 years and a step father in law that flew one as well for many years. They both told me early on that if I could not get the hours and ensure that I was safe for my family and other passengers to not take it up. So I passed until I got enough time and money to allow for skills that were required to stay safe for all involved. I'm not intrumented rated but every time I go up I work to be perfect in my endeavor. Most of the time, in fact, almost all the time I'm not perfect but that is my goal.

I can't tell you how many times I have been on approach in to an airfield and hear some guy in a Baron call for a landing on 08 when he's actually approaching 26 according to tower transmissions. There are many in private and commercial aviation that should not be there, they only strive for standards of just enough to get by. That's not acceptable.

My son is a professional pilot (ATP in both fixed wing and Helo) and I enjoy flying with him. He is currently SIC in a Falcon 2000. He seems to have inherited his skills from his grandfather's. He makes it look so easy but yet so relaxed. I have to work at it whenever I go up. His company has standards for safety that really impressed me when he went to work there. They don't cut corners on anything, when someone does there are no second chances. He's seen the results and knows the only way to do it is the right way.

My personal opinion is that if you are not striving for perfection every time you are in the air, you are not doing the job, no matter what the pay. No one goes up with the expectation of not landing safely but unfortunately for some that is the end result.