Fair enuff.

Wife and I were going to pay for 1/3, dad/step mom was going to pay for 1/3 and girls were going to work and pay for 1/3. Then that all changed when dad was killed last month. He apparently left them each substantial insurance that will easily cover their college and beyond. Before you jump conclusions I honestly don't think that is a factor in my wife's actions.

The real issue in our relationship are about the family unit. Beleive me, I have done a lot of soul searching about my issues...primarily that I feel not included or way down the totem pole in importance. Some of those feelings are unwarranted. I've worked hard on that. Some are very justified. I've tried to get wife to understand how hurtful it is to not include me in some things while trying to make her understand I don't expect to interfere with her relationship with the kids. I have feelings like I'm being used (largely unjustified but there is some indication that those feelings are valid but not so much on a level to abandon the relationship).

I do have a problem with how I handle anger...I get very frustrated when my wife does not understand my feelings or is dismissive of my concerns. While our arguments are not routinely explosive, argiuing sometimes escalates much too rapidly for both of us. I have a tenedency to go into lawyer mode when we have a disagreement using court room skills to prove mmy point. (This is not uncommon in relationships wilth lawyers:D))

Wife has a problem with giving me mixed messages when it comes to the kids. I have probably shouldered to much responsibility for kids well being and, while well intentioned, I probably should not have taken my role as steppaerent so seriously.

Wife works very hard and makes substantial if not equal (or more at cash flow shortfall times in my practice) contributions to our expenses. she primarily works nights Tues-Sat and as a result of my need for verylittle sleep ;) I help her on many evenings at her pub. While we are not overly extravagant in our lifestyle we have no financial issues to speak of.

Jim,

I am floored by this....see my signature line...I have read your posts about your stepdaughters and your trials and tribulations of having two very beautiful young women to help raise with their mum.

I can relate on a personal level...both past and present. The only 'help' i can give is that you find a counsellor you trust to work out what it is you really want...and if you can bear it make the call to the wife. She may have walked but that part may need to be parked to help the bigger picture. I am no certain from what I have read that the bigger picture for the future is clear to you.

I hope you can both work out what that bigger picture really is for all concerned. It will help you, your wife and the step daughters...this can cause them much damage at this age and in their position.

I hope that you find the strength to work this one out for the best, regardless of whether or not you do stay together.

FWIW,

There was a young lady I had interest in many moons ago. She had one child with a man who could NOT have cared less. He did not want anything to do with the child other than using the child to pick up women. I stated the only way I could move into this situation was if I could adopt the child. She refused. I left.

As has been said many a time, you cannot get between a woman and another man's children. You will lose every time.

Paul,

I had a similar conversation in the AF. Captain called me in. Only I was negative for everything, EX was positive for several things. She was still blaming me for giving her stuff. AF was pursuing me for charges. There was a reason I refused to have anything to do with her for the year previous and why I sought a divorce.

No, I never thought any issues were financial.

With the kids' college (and beyond) being covered, that seems to be a major plus. I highly doubt these girls will ever live at your house again. They will have to answer to you exactly zero in their lives. All of which is a great thing for your relationship with your wife.

I asked about where your wife works because I was interested in seeing if it was in any of the typical "danger" places - law firm, accounting firm, hospital or Drs. office, major corporation. I don't recall seeing pics of your wife, but I have of the daughters, and the looks apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree. Those "danger" places just present a lot of peril for any good looking woman, married or not. **** happens.

This pub situation, I don't know if that's better or worse.

Is there any possibility that she is seeing someone else, or interested in someone else. I ask because her behavior is pretty typical of someone who is. By that, I mean the real and lasting over-reaction to a fairly minor dispute.

Because based on your description of the relationship (great, except for the few issues involving the kids, who everyone knows will soon be on their own and out of the house forever), her actions don't make sense. I'd take a hard look at any guys she had any sort of relationship with, or has ever spoken about more than once.

The...while I have been cuckolded in two other relationships, the possibility of her being involved with someone else is totally remote.

This fuss comes on the heels of a genuine improvement in our relationship over the past 4 months. we were out of town celebrating our 3rd anniversary this past weekend. We had an absolute wonderful time...romantic get away, great food, dancing, playing in the pool yadadadada. We made a commitment to spend more quality time together because we had such a good time and owed it to each other.

No, I think she is fed up with my angry outbursts. Just as I am fed up with her deception when it comes to the kids. Issues we both need to work on individually and together if the relationship is to survive.

Jim

Let's recap:

Lots of problems for many years, including unruly step-daughters and a wife that lies TO YOU and covers up for them.

You have bailed them out financially, emotionally and legally

You finally have a sit down and set some fairly specific rules. These rules, in my opinion, are retarded, or really, the last one. But they are not my children and are not yours. But it is your house.

Have they done anything for you? How is the wife at supporting and doing things to help you when you need help? I thought so. So the whole relationship is one way. A relationship is not 50/50. It is 100% - 100%. You each put in 100%

Kids broke the rules. Wife not only knew, but participated AND lied to you to cover it up. You found out since they are not only rule breakers and liars, they are incompetent at cover up.

You got angry about all, but especially about being lied to by wife.

Wife got angry and then, on her own decision, left, took stuff, took her kids.

End of re-cap.

Question #1

So, except for the small part of getting mad/angry etc, at an appropriate moment, where are you at fault?

Question #2

You are considering going back into this situation for more. Why?

I would think long and hard about this. I seriously would consider personal counseling before re-entering this relationship, and if you do, you must get couples counseling and your wife and children need individual help too.

I am sorry to be a bit harsh here, but I think you need a wake up call. You have given and given and given. And in return you are lied to.

I know she wasn't having an affair, but hear me out here. What kills a relationship with an affair is the lying and the deception, not the sex act. You are getting the lying and the deception, destruction of trust, without the sex act. How is this really any better? How do you expect to trust your wife? She is not trust worthy. The people here who talk about mama and the cubs are deluding themselves. She cannot "protect" her children by lying to you. She is actually hurting her children.

I KNOW what you are going through. I was a step-dad for 7 years with a wife who did the same kinds of things. I was the ONLY stable influence on the girl. 1 year after splitting with my wife, her daughter had left college (1/2 way through freshman year) and moved in with boyfriend who was 28, she was 18. All I could do was shake my head. I believe she ended up pregnant.

And, hey, my big rule was easier...Don't chew food with your mouth open. She sometimes hated me for it.

For some reason I thought you were married for much longer than 3 years. 3 years . . . you should still be well in the "honeymoon phase," the fact that you have spent the last 4 months "improving" a 3 year marriage is a little troubling, because I will assume you had at least a few bad months prior to that which needed improvement. So, at least to this 20 year veteran, your marriage has basically been rocky from the start.

But, I think you are really the only one here who knows if the marriage has a reasonable chance of being saved. No one here even comes close to knowing the details, and it is all from one side.

If you think it can be saved, I still think you need to be the one to initiate it. If it is a good relationship, if you give up a little, she'll likely do the same and you can try to move on. I think when you do start up a dialog, you'd be well served to focus on the future, not the past, since your past family situation is now over.

I was going to bring this up, you had talked before about anger issues. If she and the kids were not brought up or are not used to being around someone who is "animated" and highly vocal in their outbursts, it can be extremely upsetting and threatening for them to be in that kind of environment. Being a lawyer it may seem "par for the course" but to others it makes co-habitating downright miserable.

Best of luck Jim, I know you're a good guy and will do what you think is best. Maybe go out and get a drink, don't you know someone who owns a bar? ;)

Jim,

I read the rest of the posts. IMHO, marriages hinge on trust. When an egregious, unforgivable event completely undermines that trust you have to act on what is best for your well being. Again, this is only my opinion, what is your definition of egregious and what is the action you are willing to take?

I am rather hot tempered myself. Lack of fidelity and a desire to experiment with drugs is why I kicked my first wife to the curb. Both events were beyond my ability to forgive.

None of us are going to be able to answer a question that is wholly personal. We can give advice, and much has been given. We are all over the place with our advice but such is life. Your truth will never be ours.

Again, this is only my opinion. You want to have a loving relationship with your chosen spouse and you wish to extend your love to her children. Your love includes rules to help them get through life a bit more easily, rather, with less stress and fewer troubles as life goes on. I truly believe your wife is failing the both of you by being too lenient on her daughters so as to gain their love through friendship. I believe you are failing both of you by losing your temper.

It would seem an apology would be in order for losing your temper. An apology post haste. Get it off your chest if it is bothering you. If you are not bothered don't act. The longer you wait to act, the sooner your relationship will end, IMHO.

I also feel your wife owes you an apology for undermining your authority and, this is the BIG ONE in my mind, deceiving you!

The girls will come around in a decade or so...

I wish you the best of luck! I always enjoy your posts and hope this all works out best for your entire family!

A simple Prayer:

Direct us, O Lord, in all our doings with thy most gracious favour, and further us with thy continual help; that in all our works begun, continued, and ended in thee, we may glorify thy holy Name, and finally, by thy mercy, obtain everlasting life; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen (Book of Common Prayer)

James..pretty accurate recap. To clarify:

I would not characterize dtrs as unruly. They're 18 going on 29. They want to be grown and independent though admittedly sometimes inapproprately and immmaturely.

Wouldn't really call it bailing them out financially, emotionally legally. More of being supportive. Maybe just semantics.

Why are the rules retarded? Should they just be allowed to do whatever they want? As to being allowed to stay at bf's I disagree with that not on a moral issue but rather I think allowing a quasi-living together relationship at such a young age creates unhealthy emotional dependence. In other words, while sexual activity is to be expected at theiur age, getting into the habit of having breakfast with your BF is something they are not yet equpped to handle emotionally.

I acquiesced to that rule even tho I fundamentally disagreed with the arrangement because it was a battle I could not win. They are her kids, not biologically mine.

in many ways my wife is very supportive. I have no doubt she loves me deeply. the kids...well they're kids with their own agendas. Not malevolent...just typical teenage selfishness.

IMO my anger was justified. My outburst was over the top.

Going back for more? That is my quandry. In some ways I think wife and I are capable of having a wonderful relationship even with the kids in the mix. When we work as a team with regard to the kids we do fine...even when we disagree and I have to defer to her calls. More often than not we agree on a course of action. Its when she defends them or covers for them unrealistically that I lose it.

You make a lot of good points. Thanks.

Jim,

I wish you luck.

IMO, since she left, she's the one that needs to come back. You calling her back would tell her that you are willing to accept this behavior. The waiting is the hard part.

I hope it works out.

Jim, being an "anger sensitive" person myself I understand the outburst. Trust me, I had my share of them in the first marriage.

Our problems were not so much with the stepdaughter but more of trust issues with my wife. The stepdaughter just added fuel to the fire.

We had many discussions over behavior regarding the girl. As Moses pointed out, never get between the Mama bear and her cub(s). I tried and lost every time.

What about some professional help? It may be interesting for you to hear their side of how they see the picture.

I truly wish you the best but sometimes the hardest path is the best path in life.

Had I not gone through the he!! that was my first marriage, I would not know what a true partnership can be, as in with my current wife.

Why does anyone think these daughters are out of the house forever? I think my folks' problems with my sister didn't start until her second or third year of college. Once she failed out many tens of thousands of my folks' dollars later, she came back to live with my folks to work and save up money to move to TX. Dueller's girls might not finish college. My sister was pretty good in prep school, couldn't handle college though.

Dueller, I don't have any kids and haven't been in your shoes at all. But if you think these girls are wild now, wait til you see them after they've really been free for a semester at college. Hell, I couldn't wait to get back to school after I was home during a break. I was pretty well behaved at home, got along well with my folks and I still couldn't stand to live under their roof for more than a few days. I honestly think your pain with those girls is just starting. They have more college ahead of them than you have years of marriage with their mom behind you.

Yup, 3 years. But we've been together for six years.

Funny you should mention the honeymoon phase. Without going into details, the children were not initially going to live with us when we first got married. essentially they were going to live with paternal grandmother in the adjacent town for school purposes.

So we married and lived in my bachelor pad. Within a month or two stepson moved in with us which was a good idea because he needed some male contact. Not any kind of trouble...he was just at an age where he needed to be able to do guy things grandmother could not do. Stepson and I developed a wonderful relationship. He was at an age where he wanted to learn to hunt and fish and work on cars and ride motorcycles etc etc etc. We went to hunter safety togehter. I bought him his first gun. I was in the tree stand with him when he shot his first deer. I witnessed his first motorcycle spill. yadadadaaa. Mom deferred to me on a lot of things. She recognized we bonded in a way he hadn't with his bio dad.

About 6 months later one of the step dtrs moved in with us due to a falling out with grandmother. We were really cramped in the bachelor pad. We had to make her move back in with Grandma after 4-5 weeks with the promise we would be buying a bigger house and she was welcome to come live with us.

Some 4 months later, stepson left for college and both girls immediately moved into the bachelor pad spare bedroom son vacated. It was crowded but we made do until we purchased a bigger home...limited to the location because of the school zone situation required by girls liivng with us.

While the bigger house solved some of the tensions of living in close quarters, the issues we're dealing with now developed. So the honeymoon was pushed aside in a hurry.



Maybe not really relevant, but when told their father died a month ago, stepson lost it at grandmother's house and punched holes in the wall of her house and broke a window. while they were all in California attending the funeral, I went to grandmother's house and repaired everything so she wouldn't have to deal with it on their return. The following is verbatim note I received from their paternal grandmother:

Dear Jim

Is there anything you can't do? You are a thoughtful and generous man, with your time and money. I hope Marie and the kids know how lucky they are! I'm pretty lucky myself; you have been helpful to me many times and I truly appreciate you.

You just seem to have that "know how" about you which is a wonderful trait. But more than that, you don't mind sharing it. Jim, I appreciate you more than you know. Thanks for helping look after the kids.

Love,
Sara

So some folks don't think I'm an ogre.

Quick question, and I mean this honestly, do you find that you respond with as much anger when the disagreements with your wife do not involve the daughters?

Because (1) they clearly have the personalities to want to live on their own, and (2) they have the monetary means to do so.

And (3) they like to play house, and with their looks will have no problem finding many guys to play it with.

Nope. This is pretty much the only real source of friction despite my efforts to pull back.

D, your lady has walked at least twice...
when my Lady says I got your back...
I need not worry about getting stabbed..
you...
everytime things blow due to her covering for /with the girls..
and you call her / them on it..it's
'I'm leaving ' ... I'm done'
these games may work well in HS...
but that was yrs ago ....wasn't it

Rika

well said

Jim, this is not a good reason to end a marriage. The girls are 18. Let it go. They are financially independent and legal adults. Let it go.

It doesn't make any difference if you call your wife or if she calls you. This is too important for gradeschool games. If you love your wife and want the marriage to work then do what you need to do.

I understand your frustration completely. I don't think you're an ogre at all. You've invested yourself in these girls emotionally because you care. Hell, you went and fixed the drywall that your step-son ruined. Who does that? Someone who cares.

If you want to save your marriage then go do it.

Agreed. And do it now. Time is not your friend here.

Ian

Yeah.

Normally I would agree with Moses and the other posters that say call her now. But I see this as just another power play on the wife's part. He calls, she let's him talk her into coming back and she is left with a sense of victory, just like in the past.

Jim, if you call her. Call her not to ask her back, but have a plan to talk about. Call her and ask if she is willing to go to counseling for the both of you. Obviously the two of you can't fix this by yourselves.

I really think I do want to save it when all is said and done. If I throw out the olive branch and she doesn't accept it, then I was never worth enough in her eyes. And I have to accept that it is her issue, not mine, that is the final straw.

I think I'll send her a simple note:

There is one question we need to answer: Do we want this marriage to work? I know what my answer is to the question. Regardless of what your answer is, we need to talk.

Great idea.

+ 1

Just thought I would throw in a little humor,
We split when I found out my first wife was banging her (married) gynecologist,
I thought about calling the wife but didn't.
Two weeks later in the morning edition of the paper an article about a guy killed in a crosswalk. It was him. I called my wife to tell her about it, just wanted to help,
It wasn't me, a bus hit him.

To follow this advice is to surrender utterly.

Never.

Rule no. 3 is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. If these girls just out of high school want to screw their brains out, how can you place quantity and location restrictions?

From what I've read here and on other threads, I think Mr. D is on the control freak side. These girls were 13 or so when you first met them and the mold was already cast.

I find it somewhat odd that Mr. D has posted as many pics of the girls as he has. I think there are some interesting issues at work here.

I agree with the theme that this mother is primarily involved with the girls. The fact that they are leaving, the fact that her ex just got killed are both working on her. This was not a time to play rule enforcer.

She lied, that's bad news.

It's hard to be alone in this world, but it's much harder to be in a relationship and still be alone.

I'll bet this marriage doesn't fly.

Jim,

I call it like I see it. I'm not trying to make your mind up for you, but hopefully clarify a few things.

My wife and I got a long fine, sex was great (better than great!), we had lots of things we loved to do together and when we were alone, we were fine. What loused things up were, her drinking, her over-spending and her desire for love from her child by trying to be the "friend" instead of the parent.

There is a serious issue between your wife and her children. You have touched on it. She needs to be their parent and not their friend. YOU are doing the right things. But without backup, you are the "BAD GUY" and your wife is the "GOOD GUY". This is not a good situation for the step dad to be.

As far as the retarded comment, again, I believe parents set the rules not for peace and decorum, but to set the limits and to instruct. I can't believe that that your wife thinks this is OK. I had friends, back when I was in Massachusetts with above described wife, who didn't want to tell the kids not to smoke pot, since they did it in college. This is crazy. Just because you did something stupid doesn't mean you didn't learn that it was wrong. We all do. Allowing the minor children (and they really are, since they are not emancipated adults) to stay over night at a boyfriend's house, knowing that it is for sex, is telling the girls this type of behavior is acceptable. I know why you acquiesced. And I know that the rules that were set were WAY beyond the limits of what you find acceptable. And this is why you were truly outraged. You gave in and set the limit. And they still broke that. And then your wife tried to help cover it up. Did you wife know ahead of time? Maybe she had already given permission.

The first 2 rules are fine.

For you, an emotional outburst, under the circumstances, is an "I'm sorry for yelling" fixable offense. Compare that to lying and deception. These are not in the same league. What is your wife going to do to make it up to you for lying? "I'm sorry, I won't lie again", doesn't really cut it. This is why I am truly concerned. It isn't the first time. Consider that this may be part of the reason for the end of her first marriage.

OTOH, if you think you might have an anger problem, YOU HAVE AN ANGER PROBLEM! With or without your relationship, go get that fixed. Of course, I'm one to talk. Hmm. Pot, kettle calling. Maybe we can all get a discount for a group rate...

Counseling, counseling, counseling, first alone and then with her if she wants to save the marriage. From the sounds of it you may have some anger management issues and need some professional advice on how to play this from here. Best of luck to you.

I'm engaged to a wonderful woman. My children are older and she has one who is 10. Luckily the father is a decent guy and involved so I don't need to be the full time male parent.

She has very different ideas about how me and my kids relate. We won't live together until my youngest is in college which is about a year away. However, we are seeing a therapist to discuss this issue before we get hitched even though he'll be out of the house from a full time perspective relatively soon.

I've read many of your threads regarding the family. They have been through a lot lately with the death of their father and you handled that admirably.

Again, good luck and I hope this works out how you want.

It's not supposed to be a war.

So many people say "counseling." (Must be a dozen in this thread alone).

Is this just because it's "the thing to say," or because you have personally had success with it in a situation like this?

I'm really curious. Those who have PERSONALLY had successful marriage counseling, tell us about it. By successful, I mean you were in a marriage that had real problems, went to counseling and became happily married for a significant amount of time (say, at least several years) because of it.

I ask because I know many people who went to "counseling" to save their marriage, and it worked exactly 0% of the time.

Also, I know a couple of marriage counselors. If my marriage depended on their help, there would be no hope, for sure.

Marriage is not a battle. It is by definition - a compromise. A surrendering of each person's independence to a fulfilling mutually rewarding relationship together.

Re: counseling

When my marriage was spiraling, I found a female counselor. I booked the appointment. We went. My wife sat there & refused to talk & refused to ever go back again.

Ian

I went and we didn't end up staying together. However, if we had wanted to do that it would have helped. Our issues were different and more basic. However, the counselor helped us work through whether or not we should stay together and how best to handle the separation, communication with the kids and how to best handle parenting together going forward while divorced.

I don't therefore say go to counseling just to save the marriage but to work through communication issues, whether the marriage is worth saving and if so, how to do so.

So yes, I make that recommendation having had experience. I also saw a therapist one on one later to help me deal with the end of the relationship and my own issues which were more related to my childhood, parents and self confidence. It took a while to find a good one though, the first one I saw was a lump and no help at all.

With a name like M21sniper his life is one big conflict.

LOL

0 for 2 on PPOT so far.

I personally think "counseling" is more likely to hurt a relationship than help. Just IMO. Any 3rd person is always going to have an inaccurate and significantly incomplete view of the relationship. I credit my 20 year marriage in part to NOT going to counseling.

This sentence in post #158 is particularly troubling: "However, the counselor helped us work through whether or not we should stay together." IMO a third person should not be involved in that decision.

My parents went to counseling and got through some difficult times. When my Dad passed away they had been married 47 years. I have witnessed the results, both good and not good. My own marriage counseling was a joke.

Will it work in every case? No, but I think a 3rd party professional can possibly get to the root of the problem which may not even be a relationship issue.

Again, BOTH or ALL parties need to be willing to listen and hear some truths that may not be so nice.