Need an outsiders opinion on something... - Page 3

foxpaws · foxpaws's Garage

Does it really ride on the 'choice' thing? If he had died of lung cancer caused by years of smoking (choice) would the firemen be equally worried about the honor guard?

Once again I doubt if anyone will understand what caused this chain of events, and creating some arbitrary judgement/punishment seems to not be in the best interests of the family he left behind, I would imagine his children are if nothing else, innocent by any judge.

A930Rocket · 12-26-2011, 04:53 PM

My first thought was no, but after reading what others have posted, I've changed my mind. Do it for the family.

It's an illness that caused it, not to cause grief or get even with someone IMHO.

john70t · 12-26-2011, 06:42 PM

I'm unfamiliar with the standards, but would think the "full honor guard" should be reserved for loss during duty.

His wife(who was divorcing him) wants the full death benefits, and probably needs them.

Full Honors cracks open the standards for everyone:
Whether he was an amazing person working triple shifts and volunteering the rest of his time and became injured/burnt out in life.....vs....he was a junky with Vegas debts and couldn't hack life...is all irrelevant.
Either way, it was a sad conclusion but outside the realm of the job.

Racerbvd · Racerbvd's Garage

From my understand (but not with the FD, Full Honor Guard is also based on how many years you serve.. As I said before, and others have said, do it for the Kids, they are the ones who are suffering and will be scared by their fathers action..

VINMAN · 12-27-2011, 03:57 AM

We decided to do a full firefighters service, with the exception of honor guard.

Again, thanks for your opinions. I relayed them to my guys, and they were a big part of our decision. Although a number are still unwavering in their feelings

herr_oberst · 12-27-2011, 05:45 AM

Vin, first, I feel for you. This sucks on so many levels.
May I ask what your opinion is? (If there are reasons you don't want to share, I get it.)

(Personally, I feel that the family should be given foremost consideration, they're the ones that will carry this burden for the rest of their lives; my gut tells me the firefighting brethren will, for the most part, move on...)

VINMAN · 12-27-2011, 06:25 AM

Honestly, I'm on the fence with it. Leaning towards its for the family. I realize he was a part of the dept, and should be recogized for it.
I'm in a tough position because I'm the Big Kahuna in the dept. Everyone was like ,"whatever you want to do is ok". But I put it up to a dept vote last night. I wanted everyones input. I'm glad it turned out the way it did. I feel much better. Plus I really didnt want to have to say no to the guys mother.

I understand the whole "mental Illness " issue. But alot of the guys still feel it was cowardly and he destroyed his kids. I guess the firefighter /firehouse culture is a difficult one for outside observers to understand. We are all very tight with eachother. They feel he could have talked to us. Especially the guys that were with him a few hours before.

flatbutt · 12-27-2011, 06:33 AM

This won't make any difference at this point but shouldn't the honor guard be reflecting the way the man lived NOT the way the man died?

Shaun @ Tru6 · 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VINMAN

We are all very tight with eachother. They feel he could have talked to us. Especially the guys that were with him a few hours before.

Which is proof that it was an illness.

Total BS call not to do the honor guard. a hearty FU to all those that voted no. I think you should have taken a leadership position Vinny and made it happen. Disappointed.

jhynesrockmtn · 12-27-2011, 06:45 AM

Sorry for the family. My birthfather took his life shortly after I was born. I was adopted out at birth. Have met all of the family on both sides in the last 20 years. His suicide impacted all of them in a big way. Especially my birthmother and his sister.

VINMAN · 12-27-2011, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatbutt

This won't make any difference at this point but shouldn't the honor guard be reflecting the way the man lived NOT the way the man died?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Which is proof that it was an illness.

Total BS call not to do the honor guard. a hearty FU to all those that voted no. I think you should have taken a leadership position Vinny and made it happen. Disappointed.

I agree with both of you guys. Shaun, I may be the leader, but I also run my dept democratically. I'm not a dictator. I value and allow everyones opinions, and want to vote on important matters. enough people expressed concern that I had to do it that way. I also made numerous calls to other depts and researched protocals. Seems most do the same. Matter of fact, the vast majority only use honor guard for line of duty deaths.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 12-27-2011, 07:19 AM

Vinnie, I totally understand. In my world, democracy is for where to hold the Christmas party. This situation, I think, called for something more.

You said in an earlier post: "But alot of the guys still feel it was cowardly and he destroyed his kids. " My bold.

To me, not doing the honor guard, is a little like throwing gas on the fire.

An honor guard would be a part of the healing process for the kids.

That's all there is too it.

I hope you can change some minds.

1990C4S · 12-27-2011, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VINMAN

... I'm the Big Kahuna in the dept...

... a lot of the guys still feel it was cowardly and he destroyed his kids. I guess the firefighter /firehouse culture is a difficult one for outside observers to understand. We are all very tight with each other. They feel he could have talked to us. Especially the guys that were with him a few hours before.

Perhaps you see the link here that I see, and your obligation as 'the Big Kahuna'. Ongoing education, in all aspects of your job, is one of your responsibilities to your crew.

creaturecat · 12-27-2011, 07:54 AM

Where is the compassion here?
Jeez, the family/kids deserve better.
Bad judgement, where there really should be no judgement.
Not that it is any of my business......

Hard-Deck · 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VINMAN

I guess the firefighter /firehouse culture is a difficult one for outside observers to understand.

Vinny, I'm sure there are a lot of parallels in firehouse culture and military culture. I'm a Battalion Commander, similar to your position at the station. If this was one of my Soldiers he/she'd get military honors. It's for the family. I hate suicide, but I also do not understand it nor do I judge it. We've had many Soldiers kill themselves. Your own signature quote says it as well.

VINMAN · 12-27-2011, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creaturecat

Bad judgement, where there really should be no judgement.
Not that it is any of my business......

Well I asked for your opinions, didn't I?

Thanks for your help guys. I sent a memo out. it's been changed. Like it or not . I should have put my foot down from the start.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 12-27-2011, 09:10 AM

Well done Sir! Very well DONE!

tevake · 12-27-2011, 09:16 AM

Vinnie, My feeling is that this was sorted out as well as could be. You sought and shared input from many sources. Both outside the house and inside. allowed the considerations to mature. Then came to a conclusion that shows respect for the Guy and his family. And reflects the feelings of those that have worked and lived with him.

It is a sad deal. I hope the whole community can move into the new year looking forward and learning to support each other as best as possible.

Richard

VINMAN · 12-27-2011, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Well done Sir! Very well DONE!

Hey, I only have four days left anyway. Cant go out gracefully!

flatbutt · 12-27-2011, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VINMAN

Well I asked for your opinions, didn't I?

Thanks for your help guys. I sent a memo out. it's been changed. Like it or not . I should have put my foot down from the start.

You are an admirable man!