The demise of shop classes

[David McLaughlin]

As I read this now, I'm relaxing after a long day at work. I stink and look absolutely filthy. This has been a good day. I wish I had been introduced to the autobody field when I was younger but in the yuppie towns I grew up in it was expected that you went to college. When I told my HS guidence councelor that I was not heading straight to Harvard or MIT or such like my classmates they were done with me. With no real direction or skill, I went into retail then a few classes to get what ever job I thought I wanted next. It has taken me 40 years to figure out that I'm happiest working with my hands. While I have a lot to learn still, I'm having a good time doing it. My plumber drives a Ferrari, my computer guy a 914. Most people that I know who went to school drive a ToyoHondMazdai applience with ok houses and frustrating careers.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by RWebb

I was talking to a kid just yesterday who is going to get some personalized education - he is going to Swarthmore.

It it expensive. You get the education you pay for - start a war on teachers, cut their salaries & benefits, make them teach idiotism (creationism) & they quit. Who wins that war?

There you go again, bringing your unsubstantiated bias into the discussion again. On the whole private parochial schools provide a better education than your Godless Public demonizing religion schools ever can achieve.

My Fathers generation thought highly of Teachers and treated them as Professionals. A great many of my relatives entered into that profession.

Teachers hve a high turn over rate because they get burned out being stuck between the parents and the administration. It is a thankless task with very little reward.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by NY65912

That's why I switched career paths as a young man and went into the family plumbing construction business instead of persuing psychology /social work. I figured it was better to deal with people's crap than to deal with people's crap.

Hahaha.

I wish I had shop classes available to me. Something I have only seen now through classmates here at college is the FIRST robotics programs that some high schools have. That is like a shop class and more. Teams design and build robots (like with Solidworks and milling machines, then spec the motors and program the thing to work with sensors autonomously and by remote) to do various tasks.

I have been woefully underexposed to hands-on stuff.

Not that I would want to be turning wrenches or welding for a living, but I would like to become proficient enough in it to be able to make stuff that I dream up and draw in Solidworks. I am working on acquiring those skills with the FSAE team, though.

[Flieger]

Teachers get no respect. Most of my professors (at least the ME ones) are very interesting guys when you get talking to them. They have their own personalities and views to add spice to the lectures, and they know so much, including the invaluable experience learned from years of engineering work. It is a shame their salaries are being cut back as they are.

[WolfeMacleod]

Pretty sure the high school that the GF's kid just (barely) graduated from offered no shop classes at all.
Unfortunately, this means he's graduated without any knowledge or interest in tool use of any useful man-skills whatsoever.

[RWebb]

tabsey - Swarthmore is private

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by Flieger

I have been woefully underexposed to hands-on stuff.

Hummmmmmmmm??? But your car says something else. You love to tinker with the mechanical and love the art of the Porsche.

I think you are making up for lost time!!!

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Flieger

.

I have been woefully underexposed to hands-on stuff.

Originally Posted by Danimal16

Hummmmmmmmm??? But your car says something else. You love to tinker with the mechanical and love the art of the Porsche.

I think you are making up for lost time!!!

His dad built it.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by Danimal16

Hummmmmmmmm??? But your car says something else. You love to tinker with the mechanical and love the art of the Porsche.

I think you are making up for lost time!!!

Originally Posted by Zeke

His dad built it.

Neither I nor my dad built it. TRE, Kevin Metzner, TLG, and some others -- they built it. They car started its transformation when I was 4 years old so for much of that time I was too young. The motor was done in the late 80s or maybe 1990 by a place called Kraftwerk in Texas. We don't have any major tools and have barely enough garage space for it.

I do understand all that goes on with it and I did decide to go with the Rebel Racing stuff. I'm going to install the rear bushings this summer with Clint. Also I am going to have to pick up some skills like machining and welding to build my suspension designs for senior project on the FSAE car. I have the resources available here at Cal Poly SLO.

Machining and welding is mostly what I was talking about. I can turn wrenches and stuff like that. I've done basic woodwork. I have even been introduced to composites.

[Flieger]

I am not sure how to read those comments, though, since it is in green but the sarcasm does not seem to jive with the words.

[johnsjmc]

I taught tech ed at the grade 7-12 levels for 30 years . I am a licensed mechanic in Ontario and I have a BSc . There are many factors leading to the decline.
Kids generally love the classes but
Parents and administrators seem to want everyone to go to university.
School admin had largely language based educations themselves. I remember only one school administrator with a tech background during my 30 yr career.
Costs are higher per student,both for equipment and the classes have lower numbers for safety reasons. The equip wears out slowly compared to a computer but the eventual replacement of the infrastructure is expensive.Many school districts put off equipment replacement/ upgrading and then closed down the programs when they could replace them with something cheaper.They are also unable to replace the teachers when they retire.New shops would need dust collectors etc to meet current standards and are seen as dirty and noisy.
Try to tell a school principal that snap-on tools are needed and they ask why not Sears craftsman.
Liability concerns are rising. The most dangerous place in a school, by number of claims is the playground(unsupervised ) followed by the gym ( running and climbing ropes etc) and science labs then the shops. shop accidents might be seen as potentially more serious but a death is very very rare.(I recall 2 in shop classes during 30 years in the whole province) and there were probably also deaths on football teams during the same years.

Our daughter is a union electrician making about $125k with overtime in a good year ,one son is just finishing an apprenticeship as a machinist.Other son has a degree in animation.
I reminded them all that they needed careers which couldn,t be exported to China or Mexico.

High school tech can cut some time off a traditional apprenticeship but as several have pointed out just the introduction to tech was worthwhile imho.
You can,t replace the experience with a picture of something on a computer screen and a lego kit.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Machining and welding is mostly what I was talking about. I can turn wrenches and stuff like that. I've done basic woodwork. I have even been introduced to composites.

Your proving my point and I still love your car!! Proves you have good taste and mechanical aptitude as well!

[Flieger]

Thank you.

[intakexhaust]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

Please explain. Are you intimating liability issues?

S

Yes, at least in the state of Illinois. Probably a different situation depending on what state and how the school taxing bodies are.

Years ago, accidents would happen but the law wouldn't come down on a teacher, assistant or school. In the 1980's, almost any accident in a school shop where an injury occured would be dragged through the courts with some major awards to plaintiff's. Illinois has school districts so cut up and not as consolidated or streamlined as other states. Only in the last few years have they admitted this and the problems. Their trying to change but its so messed up now, who knows??

So what happened, these smaller districts and taxing bodies could no longer afford the liabilities. The easiast way to save the cost was simply eliminating trade related programs in high school. Lots of fire sales throughout the state for school shop equipment was common from 1987 to 1990. It was obvious what had happened. However, some of the wealthier districts were able to work it out with local county colleges and by busing high school students during the day for mechanical, woodwork, electrical, HVAC, etc. classes at the college.

Outside of the arrangement above, I find it interesting that an adult can take shop classes at a community college but high school aged cannot. They need a GED and credits in order for admittance. So the education system views it as the 'cart before the horse'. Too bad as I think learning a trade or at least exposing the possibilities to HS students is crucial at that age.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Zeke

You were fortunate to have the remodeling experience before going into engineering. How might we impart some practical training for all students. Didn't they once require girls to take a "homemaking" class? That should be co-ed.

I am VERY lucky to have hands-on experience in my past, my time spent doing remodeling and working as a mechanic is a huge benefit to my professional career. It is staggering to me just how many brilliant engineers that work daily with complex mechanical systems (airplanes) have no freaking clue how to change their own oil, change a tire, wire an electrical outlet, etc. It's also a travesty that my BS required more credit hours than any other major in the university but didn't include a single applied concepts course. A good engineer is a hands-on engineer, I often wonder if they create very many good engineers.

My stance is that some number of "practical" courses should be required parts of the high school curriculum, they were when I went to school in the 1990s. I think I took welding and auto tech to satisfy those requirements, plus they were fun classes. I also think that students should be required to take a practical business course where you learn about safe use of credit, money management, and investing/retirement. All of the above will be of more benefit throughout life than a social studies course. Sadly our high schools don't care about preparing students for life, they care about preparing students for college.

[RWebb]

speaking of shop classes & liability...

when I was taking cabinet making classes, they had a the safety board on legs that sat behind the table saw to prevent a big kick back from shooting across the room

I brought in a paper pistol range target and put it up on the safety board

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I am VERY lucky to have hands-on experience in my past, my time spent doing remodeling and working as a mechanic is a huge benefit to my professional career.

So true. When I was the Chief Test Pilot at the Sikorsky factory we did a number of Kaisan Events (continuous improvement) and what struck me was the disconnect between design, manufacture and install.

The really smart kids designing the stuff had never met the really smart kids manufacturing the stuff and the really smart kids on the line, trying to provide feedback on why the stuff was off kilter, never got a voice.

I guarantee if any of the designers and engineers had ever tried to figure out an early Porsche fuel injection system in their garage the feedback loop at Sikorsky would have been much better.

I talked to my best friend when I was growing up yesterday. Mark was the all California Interscholastic Federation 4A football player of the year in high school...the best athlete I have ever played with and who blocked for me as I tried hard to be 1/3 as talented as he. He was a beast then and now remains the nicest man I have ever met. In all our years together growing up we never had a cross word, zero, and I mean zero...hours and hours at practice, bus rides in football and baseball, beers and summers dicking around and hikes all over the coastal mountains, wins and loses on large and small fields.

His Dad owned an appliance repair shop and Mark worked weekends and summers for his Dad. So did I. I carried the tools and ran parts.

Mark still runs calls at the shop his Dad built and Mark now owns, which he has made into sales and repair at two locations. "It is what I like to do."

That is the key, what we need to nurture and respect.

Mark is a rich man and makes serious coinage on his terms, a tradesman terms.

[cashflyer]

In some schools, kids can take both paths. I did in my school.
I took some AP classes, and I also took shop, drafting, and home-ec.

And at home, my father always insisted that I help him with any repair project. Plumbing, electrical, horticulture ... you name it. By age 14, I was not only able to change a tire, but also knew the basics of rebuilding a small block.

This is why parents, or the absence thereof, are such a huge factor in any child's development (imo). Without a parent teaching me, my only fallback to a hands-on education would have been that shop class, that drafting class, and that home-ec class.

You take that away, and what is left?

[Henry Schmidt]

Back in 1991, my son was in high school and he came home and told me that his school would no longer teach auto shop.
I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
I contacted the school principal and told him I would be willing to teach an auto repair class in my shop two nights a week for those students interested in learning.
All I wanted was the proper waivers so we wouldn't be held liable for any possible injuries that would exceed our shop liability policy.

The response was "Thank you but we are not interested in your offer".

I must admit I had ulterior motives ( get to spend more time with my kid) but I also thought it was a great way to give back to the community. I pushed it for a few months and gave up.
They haven't had a auto shop class at that high school since 1991.
So sad

[Mr.C]

Back in H.S. I took metal shop the four years I was there and because of it I became a very good welder. Since then every job that I have landed, I can in some way directly link to the training I had in that H.S. metal shop class....not just the physical training, but the influence of a real good man.
It's been over 20yrs. since that time in H.S. and I've had many jobs. Last year I made six figures that again I can link directly to the influence and teaching that I learned in metal shop.