new Ford Fusion - 70 computers - really?

[dave 911]

There was an article in this weekend's paper about the new Fusion, and the fact that there are 70 on board computers to control the multitude of sensors and connectivity built in. And Ford is bragging about that.

Do we really need cars with 70 computers in them? That's 70 reasons for the check engine light to come on as they break/fail...and a reason to charge more $ and make more profit.

Call me old school (obviously, if I read this in an actual printed newspaper), but we sure are making things a hell of a lot more complex than they need to be. I sure miss the days of the old (air cooled) VW beetle - good, dependable transportation that you can easily troubleshoot and fix yourself.

[oldE]

OK. Take a piece of paper and a pen and write a letter to the editor.

Seriously though, the microchips in a modern car allow multiplexing, reducing connections and manufacturing complexity to cut weight and reduce problem areas.

The expression "They don't build 'em like they used to." is to me, a statement of progress. (Remember the Plymouth Volare?)

Best
Les

[jyl]

There are plenty of old VW Beetles out there to buy.

[onewhippedpuppy]

It's hard to escape, everything has an ECU in a modern car. Simple circuits are a thing of history. On the upside, modern cars are exponentially more reliable than cars of the past. On the downside, you need a super expensive computer provided by the manufacturer to troubleshoot many issues when something does break.

[svandamme]

I really was impressed with my BMW when it started to go completely mental.
push indicator left, right window opens,
turn on lights, rear wiper turns on
about 10 weird combinations like that

What was wrong? the door window control panel was buggered ...

They had to get the car in for a full day to fix it.. Mind you, the panel was replaced in 2 hours, but then they had to reprogram the entire car.

Buy your old cars now, cause these new cars will never be fun when they are old.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by svandamme

I really was impressed with my BMW when it started to go completely mental.
push indicator left, right window opens,
turn on lights, rear wiper turns on
about 10 weird combinations like that

What was wrong? the door window control panel was buggered ...

They had to get the car in for a full day to fix it.. Mind you, the panel was replaced in 2 hours, but then they had to reprogram the entire car.

Buy your old cars now, cause these new cars will never be fun when they are old.

Wow... Really?

I'm hanging onto my Golf until it dies

[VINMAN]

Exactly why I like my '62 Mercury....

[Christien]

Buy your old cars now, cause these new cars will never be fun when they are old.

You know, I never thought of that. I wonder if the "vintage" car hobby may really suffer as less and less cars become desireable to have in their vintage state. Like you say, modern cars don't break down as much, but when they do it takes a phd in physics to repair, plus specialized tools. I wonder if that will translate to little or no interest in these cars in 50 years time. My mom had a 1987 300zx when I was a teenager. I'd hate to try to maintain that car now.

My great grand kids will sure be happy I didn't sell the 72.

[oldE]

Don't forget: us old fogies will all be in Shady Pines or looking at the 'wrong side' of the sod. The people who will be looking after those old wrecks (the four-wheeled ones) will be today's computer-gadget generation. If they can't plug into it with their personal device to work out a fix, they'll likely 'bin it'.

After all, how many people are lusting after a car with manual spark advance and a hand-crank start?

The world moves on, my friends.

Best
Les

[herr_oberst]

Yep, your new Cadillac will be no less of a boat anchor than your new Corolla when things start to go wrong. Modern cars are unbelievably sophisticated, capable, entertaining, safe, efficient, etc etc, but how many of us are going to pay for repairs when the warranty has expired. No less a domestic appliance than the dishwasher in your kitchen.

My 92 Toyota 4x4 looks real good to me. Slow, cramped, yep. But I can get parts and install 'em myself.

[GH85Carrera]

The big problem will be trying to find an affordable door window control panel for that BMW in 30 years.

It is possible that the enthusiast cars will have a BBS like Pelican that has the step by step instructions on how to print a new door window control panel or some similar computer with your home 3D printer. The DME of my 911 is available on the aftermarket now. It is not cheap by any estimation. I just can't imagine how a 3D printer can replicate a functioning one. But I could never imaging a 64 gig iPhone 5 back in 1983. I doubt any super computer on the planet had 64 gig of storage in 1983 or the computing power of an iPhone 5.

The vast majority of cars produced today are disposable cars. But I guess thaat is true of the cars form 1983. Right now anyone could build a 100% concours perfect Chevy Vega. I don't see anyone rebuilding a 2013 911 Turbo in 2043. I just hope to be alive to find out.

[recycled sixtie]

Good point Dave. The less computers the better. I find that my 2001 Boxster has enough computers. Now I question myself whether I should get a code reader just to read the codes. Car run fines so far. Scared of what the code reader might say!

You mentioned the old VW Beetles. I still miss mine. No Aos, no Ims, no radiator but no heat either! If I had the space I would love to have an old bug just to drive in the summer. But I do like my creature comforts. Air cond. and heated seats are a must.

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by dave 911

There was an article in this weekend's paper about the new Fusion, and the fact that there are 70 on board computers to control the multitude of sensors and connectivity built in. And Ford is bragging about that.

Do we really need cars with 70 computers in them? That's 70 reasons for the check engine light to come on as they break/fail...and a reason to charge more $ and make more profit.

Call me old school (obviously, if I read this in an actual printed newspaper), but we sure are making things a hell of a lot more complex than they need to be. I sure miss the days of the old (air cooled) VW beetle - good, dependable transportation that you can easily troubleshoot and fix yourself.

The latest Ford recall on the Ecco boost is a computer problem. The engines are catching fire. W/o going into details, Ford discovered the root cause of the problem and needs to reprogram the ECU.

[asphaltgambler]

I would say that there not really 70 computers but rather a few main system computers and the rest are controllers.

BTW way - all true as said above. People want options and convenience. There was a point crossed many years ago (think '80's) even in the domestic lines where simple component connectivity was just not efficient anymore. The beginning of this was simple multiplexing and using smaller gauge wiring.

I remember in fixing cars in the 'olden' days where if a power window and some other device did not work you had to manually trace the electrical path down to each component. VERY time-consuming. Take for instance a 1972 Chevy Impala with power windows. The control switches carried the full amp load to the window motors. As you can imagine everything was big in scale and crude in execution so amount of current was fairly high for just an accessory. I believe the wiring to the switches and motor was 12-14 gauge for each circuit. The bundle was huge!!

With the advent of networking with controllers the diagnosis procedure has in many ways become more simple using scan tools to find the initial potential problems.

[onewhippedpuppy]

I'll be curious to see how well modern cars hold up. Miles of thin gauge wire - how well will that hold up in 40 years? Can you imagine trying to trace out a broken wire(s) in a modern car? With modern cars no longer being prone to rust, maybe the primary restoration challenge will be electrical in nature?

[asphaltgambler]

Well, that is a very good point. For the last ten or so years, vehicle engineers want to go with higher voltage electrical systems - either 36 or 48 volt DC like aircraft use. The main reason is cost and size of the wiring harness. By going up in voltage you can perform the same tasks with much smaller gauge wiring so there is less expense manufacturing and size on the wiring looms.

I have been told by numerous vehicle manufacturer's technical class instructors that the complete wiring harness and computers/controllers are the single biggest cost item to manufacture. More the engine, trans or body.

If you guys ever get a chance look at an early pre-1950's vehicle that uses 6 volt DC electrical systems. The battery cables and related wiring is HUGE look like 220V stick welding cables

[Rot 911]

I think a lot of what is said here is born out in resale prices on these cars. The 2006 BMW 330i that I sold last year was worth less than my 1986 Carrera. And will eventually depreciate to zero. Mostly because as the car gets older, repairs increase, and the cost of the repairs on the older BMW is the same as on the newer one. Eventually cost of repair exceeds value of the car. Perfect example of this in the Porsche world is the 928. While it may be cheaper to diagnose the problem on new cars, the repairs are generally quite expensive.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Rot 911

I think a lot of what is said here is born out in resale prices on these cars. The 2006 BMW 330i that I sold last year was worth less than my 1986 Carrera. And will eventually depreciate to zero. Mostly because as the car gets older, repairs increase, and the cost of the repairs on the older BMW is the same as on the newer one. Eventually cost of repair exceeds value of the car. Perfect example of this in the Porsche world is the 928. While it may be cheaper to diagnose the problem on new cars, the repairs are generally quite expensive.

Yup. Even though you bought your used BMW for $10k, it still costs as much to maintain as a $50k new one. This does, however, present a nice opportunity for DIY enthusiasts. I'll absorb a few $200 repairs like the HVAC motor that I just replaced on my S8 to have the pleasure of driving a car with a $76k MSRP.

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Yup. Even though you bought your used BMW for $10k, it still costs as much to maintain as a $50k new one. This does, however, present a nice opportunity for DIY enthusiasts. I'll absorb a few $200 repairs like the HVAC motor that I just replaced on my S8 to have the pleasure of driving a car with a $76k MSRP.

You and your positive thinking. Actually, that is a good point. It would be fun to drive a big Mercedes or an 8 series BMW across the country, and they're out there for pennies on the dollar

[john70t]

Blue screen of death at 100mph.

Bluetooth with internet capability maintains constant connectivity to nearby wireless nodes.
Integrated interior microphones and cameras.
Integrated into the core function: Doors, Alarm, Main fuse, Individual wheel-braking controls....

Sure, no problem at all. It's "your" new equipment (purchased with cash), but now seamless with "society".