So, is everybody cool if they burned the cabin down without even trying to negotiate?

[ZOA NOM]

Originally Posted by MikeSid

The law doesn't require use of all available lesser options. Only an objectively reasonable use of force given the totality of the circumstances. This wasn't knock, announce, shoot.

Now I'm not so naive to think that Dorner had a legitimate shot at surrendering if he should have choosen. But that examination just results in speculation and we'll never know the real answer to that.

I disagree. We pay our police force to enforce the law, and to protect our Constitutional rights. All of us. They are responsible for every choice they made, especially once he was cornered in the cabin, and they had complete control of the situation. They had the choice to attempt to take him alive.

[Jim Bremner]

I offered him some thin mints and a glass of whole milk if he came out

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by VaSteve

Hey the LAPD beat down Rodney King and it was a problem. They *killed* this guy and its not. Howaboutthat?

Two completely different circumstances.

Rodney king was not armed and had not killed people/cops.

They "Killed" this guy because he was held up in a cabin and shooting at them with some success.

What I'm concerned about is the use of CS gas. If they used enough he may have become unconscious and therefore unable to surrender.
.... I'm not buying the single shot just before the fire. Way too convenient.

CS gas is flammable. It's been speculated that the CS gas pumped into the Waco building was ignited on purpose by the FBI.
Did the cops use the same tactic at the cabin?

[ZOA NOM]

Originally Posted by Jim Bremner

If I'm shooting back from my house and won't come out bring on the s'mores

Fair enough.

[Hydrocket]

WHAT IF he would have placed his hands up over his head and walked out?

I have a feeling someone would have "accidentally" shot him. Or there would have been some BS story how he opened fire on them.

Could this guy have given up and come out of this alive even if he wanted to??

I'm not so sure...

[VaSteve]

Was he actually shooting at them? It's hard to tell from this thread. If yes, then a different set of circumstances. I get the feeling From this thread he was "holed up" and not presently firing at them.

[ZOA NOM]

Originally Posted by Hydrocket

WHAT IF he would have placed his hands up over his head and walked out?

I have a feeling someone would have "accidentally" shot him. Or there would have been some BS story how he opened fire on them.

Could this guy have given up and come out of this alive even if he wanted to??

I'm not so sure...

Which is precisely why I think the police have the responsibility to calm the hell down, and make every attempt to bring the guy in alive. If he decides to put the gun in his mouth, so be it. But we pay them to apprehend, not execute.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I'll throw this out there. How sure can anyone be positive that cabin was unoccupied before Dorner holed up there? There's just no way you can ever be sure that burning down a bldg. and watching it burn while holding the fire dept. back is really the right thing to do.

I watched a guy throw a molotov cocktail at a rowhouse and then it burn to the ground in college. Someone busted down the door in the place nextdoor, ran up and pulled a baby out. Parent had run out for just a quick errand. How sure can you ever be, without searching, that a bldg. is empty?

Good point, but they were reasonably sure. The cabin owner was on TV saying that she had shut the place down, and had shut off the electricity, heat, etc. The owner was surprised to learn from watching TV that her cabin was involved.

Originally Posted by Jim Bremner

I offered him some thin mints and a glass of whole milk if he came out

And how do you know that he's not diabetic AND lactose intolerant? You brute!!


I am happy that the guy is dead. That is why I am not quick to judge the cops here. I am also glad that he's not being given free medical, free meals, free legal appeals, etc etc like the scum shooters we have seen lately.

I also agree with ZOA, that it will be very very interesting to see if there is a bullet hole pre-mortem through his skull.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by VaSteve

Was he actually shooting at them? It's hard to tell from this thread. If yes, then a different set of circumstances. I get the feeling From this thread he was "holed up" and not presently firing at them.

He killed one cop at the cabin and injured another so he was definitely shooting at them

You really can't make a proper assessment of what actually from the video.

[ZOA NOM]

Originally Posted by rusnak

I am happy that the guy is dead. That is why I am not quick to judge the cops here. I am also glad that he's not being given free medical, free meals, free legal appeals, etc etc like the scum shooters we have seen lately.

Totally agree. I'm just concerned about the bigger picture. The more power we give to "authorities", the worse it'll be for us citizens.

I'll say this, I would have been impressed if they would have taken him alive.

[Hydrocket]

Is anyone surprised they didn't use a drone strike to kill him??

Label him a terrorist, and they would have gotten the green light...

[RWebb]

nobody mentioned Ruby Ridge yet

nobody mentioned Ludlow, Colo. either

[ZOA NOM]

Originally Posted by Hydrocket

Is anyone surprised they didn't use a drone strike to kill him??

Label him a terrorist, and they would have gotten the green light...

I TOTALLY posted this yesterday!

They actually called him a terrorist.

[rusnak]

Yes, he shot at them when the standoff started. Almost a day went by, police evacuated the area, news flooded in, people like me tuned into the scanners.....then the final chapter around 4:30 when the cops brought in the burners. By then, they had already rammed the holes in the walls, they had shot up the cabin, saw bloodspatters on the wall, etc etc. They knew they got him, they pretty much were sealing the deal.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by ZOA NOM

Totally agree. I'm just concerned about the bigger picture. The more power we give to "authorities", the worse it'll be for us citizens.

I'll say this, I would have been impressed if they would have taken him alive.

I understand your question, and I agree with your and OWP's point. I also agree that this is a nation of laws, and I agree that the cops are given discretion to use force only because they are often there as a first responder, and need to be judicious in that use of force.....

But I just can't bring myself to condemn the cops yet. I can condemn them for shooting innocent bystanders for sure, but for killing a murderer, even if he was bleeding out at the time....I just don't know yet.

[pwd72s]

Doesn't matter krap what we think...

[jyl]

Originally Posted by ZOA NOM

So, you'd be fine with drafting your sentiments into a policy document that establishes policy to deliberately kill a person rather than attempt to apprehend?

Give the guy a chance to surrender, then do what you have to do to get him out, without risking your men's lives.

What that is, depends on the situation and the risk. This guy, was a proven extreme threat. Every time he's shot it out with police, an officer has died. You treat his threat very differently from a routine burglar etc.

[drcoastline]

Originally Posted by Baz

Once he killed a cop - all bets are off wrt doing things the legal way.

Cop killers are a special type of criminal and don't deserve constitutional rights.

This is how it has always been done in our society.

Tradition is tradition after all.

Law enforcement has it's reputation to consider.

Dorner made them look real bad there for a while.

I think they did the right thing.

Hmmm.I think this shoulkd be in green. I'm pretty sure my life is equally as important as a cop. Sorry no that's not correct, I am positive it is more important than any cop. Cops or any LEO are no more important and don't have any rights gretaer than any other.

[ZOA NOM]

Originally Posted by drcoastline

Hmmm.I think this shoulkd be in green. I'm pretty sure my life is equally as important as a cop. Sorry no that's not correct, I am positive it is more important than any cop. Cops or any LEO are no more important and don't have any rights gretaer than any other.

This dovetails with an earlier thread that asked "When is it OK to shoot a cop?" If you find yourself in a situation where you are forced to shoot one, wouldn't you prefer that the ones who show up to arrest you use a little restraint? This is precisely why we have laws, and why we train our authorities to be held to a higher standard.

[944Larry]

Originally Posted by Baz

Once he killed a cop - all bets are off wrt doing things the legal way.

Cop killers are a special type of criminal and don't deserve constitutional rights.

This is how it has always been done in our society.

Tradition is tradition after all.

Law enforcement has it's reputation to consider. the killer should somehow be treated differently

Dorner made them look real bad there for a while.

I think they did the right t if somebody "hing.

Baz, you usually get it right but I beg to differ here. I fail to see where a person that kills a cop should have no rights. You have implied here that if one of us "regular" people gets killed by a lowlife, our murder should be treated differently. Murder is murder, from 8 months to 80 years old and regardless of vocation, sex, color or anything else. They should all be treated the same.