Tuscon driver mows down cyclists

[trekkor]

Here's a very real perspective I face frequently:



Imagine you are doing 40mph and so is the oncoming vehicle as you come around this blind curve, except it's a truck.
There is a bike in the middle of the lane in front of you.

What are your options?

This screen shot is about two miles from our place and this is a very real scenario I have faced often over the last 23 years.


KT

[Red88Carrera]

Let's say instead of a bike, it's another car, or a pedestrian. What's the difference. Weren't you ever taught not to play in traffic?
See the white line? Bicycles should be to the right of it!

[trekkor]

The above picture is part of a very popular cyclist route. Hundreds of riders every week.

Sometimes huge packs of riders cruise through there.

I anticipate them.
Tourists use the same road.

I cannot remember any news of bike accidents out here, which really surprises me.



KT

[Red88Carrera]

Would you expect to walk that road and not have a high probability of being hit. Cyclists should have the same mindset, but they don't because they think the 'law' will prevent it.

[trekkor]

I wouldn't walk or ride that road.

I have in the past, but not now.



KT

[jyl]

Looks like parts of the roads I mentioned above.

Your action as a driver: slow until the oncoming truck passes, then put your left wheels over the centerline and pass the rider with a couple feet clearance.

It will delay you about 30 seconds. Far less than Hugh R's motorhome will delay you when you come upon it. Bummer, but read the law of your state: cars do NOT have exclusive use of that road.

The rider's action: Stay to the right to the extent possible, in this case he can't be to the right of the white line (the roadway ends there) but he can be nearly on it, and don't dilly-dally, ride like you mean it and get out of that narrow part as quickly as you can.

Here's a very real perspective I face frequently:







Imagine you are doing 40mph and so is the oncoming vehicle as you come around this blind curve, except it's a truck.

There is a bike in the middle of the lane in front of you.



What are your options?



This screen shot is about two miles from our place and this is a very real scenario I have faced often over the last 23 years.





KT

[jyl]

That's not the law in California. You may not agree, but there it is.

Let's say instead of a bike, it's another car, or a pedestrian. What's the difference. Weren't you ever taught not to play in traffic?

See the white line? Bicycles should be to the right of it!

[Red88Carrera]

Originally Posted by jyl

The rider's action: Stay to the right to the extent possible.

I don't think we are disputing the 'law', rather the actions of 'pack' riders.

And Trekkor, I love your tile work!

[jyl]

I'm pointing out that if you think riders must always stay to the right of the white line - as you stated in no uncertain terms above - you are simply wrong.

"Roadway: Bicyclists can ride wherever they want if they’re traveling at the speed of traffic. If traveling slower than the speed of traffic, they can still position themselves wherever in the lane is necessary for safety. The law says that cyclists must ride as close to the right side of the road as safely possible except under the following conditions: when passing, preparing for a left turn, avoiding hazards, if the lane is too narrow to share, or if approaching a place where a right turn is authorized. CVC 21202"

California Bicycle Coalition » Sharing the road

If a lane becomes so narrow that a car cannot safely pass the rider, the rider can "take the lane", basically a defensive move to prevent a car from making an unsafe pass. That is law too, see above. I personally consider that a pretty rare case, and I will not take the lane unless I am also riding as fast as I physically can, to get out of there soonest. If a rider takes the lane but just mooches along, that is obnoxious.

That said, drivers are obnoxious all the time. Camping in the fast lane, tailgating, driving 40 on the freeway, double parking, speeding, cutting each other off, failing to use pullouts, on and on. I don't often hear of jerks in SUVs ramming another car because that car held him up on a windy road or whatever. Some drivers display their worst qualities when a cyclist is involved. It's a power thing, they think they can act with impunity. In this case, not so.

Quote de jyl

The rider's action: Stay to the right to the extent possible.

I don't think we are disputing the 'law', rather the actions of 'pack' riders.



And Trekkor, I love your tile work!

[trekkor]

Originally Posted by Red88Carrera

And Trekkor, I love your tile work!

Thanks.


When I come around a blind corner, I see the truck first, then the bike in the middle of the road.

Honestly, I don't know how we don't have more bikers getting hit.


KT

[Red88Carrera]

I know it's not law, just my opinion as I have good sense. Here in NY, when a vehicle is overtaking a cyclist, the cyclists must run in single file as closely to the right hand edge as permissible. More than not, that doesn't happen. That's what I mean by testing the law.

[Red88Carrera]

Originally Posted by trekkor

Thanks.


When I come around a blind corner, I see the truck first, then the bike in the middle of the road.

Honestly, I don't know how we don't have more bikers getting hit.


KT

Trust me, I'm not advocating that anyone go out and mow down cyclists. My beef is with the pack riders that are clearly trying to use the pedestrian laws to their advantage. A cyclist isn't a pedestrian. I stop whenever I see someone attempting to cross the street, crosswalk or not. How many times have you seen a cyclist not stop at a stop sign, or red light? If you wanna play in the street, you need to follow the rules.

[Jeff Higgins]

I would sure like to hear the other side of this from Mr. Kinkade. Reading Mr. Wren's clearly one-sided account doesn't really tell us everything we need to know. If we believe him, why of course the Jamis-Hagens Berman team are completely blameless in all of this. They were just riding along, obeying all traffic laws, minding their own business when this man attacked them. Totally unprovoked. Honest - just ask everyone on the team.

I suspect there may be more to the story. I wonder how long Kinkade was stuck behind these guys while they refused to move over and let him pass. I wonder if they were actually only two abreast and as far right as possible. I wonder if Mr. Herriott was possibly the aggressor, moving over in an attempt to damage Kinkades' car once he was finally able to pass, and simply lost control when he did.

As a former exceedingly avid cyclist, I've seen it all, from inside the group. What Don says is absolutely spot-on: single cyclists (and I would include pairs or threesomes) seem to respect traffic law a good deal more than groups. I quit group riding over 20 years ago for that very reason; I simply got tired of all of the angry motorists - motorists whom, it was clear to me, had every right to be angry with us. I saw cyclists damage cars that were finally able to get past our groups, either by smacking them with their tire pumps or kicking them with their cleats. I even remember guys carrying rocks in their pockets just to throw at cars that they felt slighted them in some way.

It's the perfect crime for the puffed up, self righteous militant cyclist. Any incident whatsoever will almost always be blamed on the motorist, and these cowardly heroes on their bicycles know it. And they know the motorists know it, so that emboldens them even more.

This situation has gotten quite bad in the areas surrounding Seattle, the rural farm country with all of the nice driving and riding roads. It's just a hop skip and a jump for all of the Seattle cyclists to throw the bike onto the rack and drive out into the country, where they swarm the back roads en masse. Most are very conscientious and do their best to get along with all of the other road users. Guaranteed, though, on a nice day like today, one will encounter at least a group or three that think they are above all of that.

I followed just such a group today, riding three, four, five abreast across the entire lane on a road with no passing zones for miles. They were doing fifteen mph or less and simply would not let me pass, despite repeated toots of the horn. Oh, they looked back, they knew full well I was there, but would they go single file to let me by? Hell no. I was stuck behind them for a couple of miles.

So (and I've mentioned this here before, but have not actually followed through), here is the new plan: can of bear spray in the car and on the bike at all times. The kind with about a 30-40 foot range. Next time (and there will certainly be a next time, with spring and summer approaching), when I finally have room to go around a group like this, I'll be passing slowly enough to make sure my passenger (if I have one) or myself has time to hose down each and every one of the sorry SOB's. I'm hoping to start a movement, where more and more motorists fight back like this.

[jyl]

Go for it, enjoy the time with your defense lawyer, maybe she'll be cute.

What needs to be done is some stings. Get a video camera in an unmarked sheriff's car, record what Jeff described, then light 'em up, write the whole group citations, impound all the bikes as evidence. Word will get around quickly.

If it is such a problem in your area, deal with it productively. Get newsies, motorists' groups, commercial drivers, etc together, pressure law enforcement.

Your bear spray vigilante fantasy is fun (I guess), but you won't ever do it, because you're not dumb and you have too much to lose.

[Red88Carrera]

Thank you Jeff. Good to have an insider perspective.

[Red88Carrera]

Originally Posted by jyl

Go for it, enjoy the time with your defense lawyer.

Good luck with that in NY. It's just like hitting a deer. "He ran right out in front of me."

Not really, but you'll not go far with that attitude.

[jyl]

Saving this so that I can re-read it this summer . . .

Jeff Higgins:
So (and I've mentioned this here before, but have not actually followed through), here is the new plan: can of bear spray in the car and on the bike at all times. The kind with about a 30-40 foot range. Next time (and there will certainly be a next time, with spring and summer approaching), when I finally have room to go around a group like this, I'll be passing slowly enough to make sure my passenger (if I have one) or myself has time to hose down each and every one of the sorry SOB's. I'm hoping to start a movement, where more and more motorists fight back like this.

[Tobra]

When you have a big speed differntial, it raises the stakes, so to speak. I would think, just from a standpoint of self preservation, cyclists would have the sense to stay to the right, but often as not, they don't. I have seen clots of cyclists on roads with no shoulder and 50 mph speed limits. I have seen groups riding on the winding levee roads that was straight up dangerous. If I got a flat on a road like that, I would be buying a rim rather than try to change it there. Just because you can, does not always mean you should

I pay attention to what is going on when I am driving. I often think this is the exception, rather than the rule. People driving, on the phone, texting, weaving along. I am lucky, there are miles and miles of good bicycle trails around here, both paved and un paved. I have commuted by bike before, when I lived in San Francisco, I tried to choose my route to minimize my interaction with cars, rode in Golden Gate Park as much as I could. Lived a block N of it for a few years and a few blocks S for a few years, used the park as an expressway.

There are some crazy folks out there. You can't tell which ones by looking, so I stay as far away from all of them as I can.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by trekkor

How so?

I think you ought to stay all the way to the right or in the bike lane.
Not in the actual road.

Especially if you can't maintain the posted speed limit.


KT

The law states a cyclist can take up the whole lane and that my btich with most of the inexperience cyclist that ride in the streets today. They don't have to do so ands allow cars to pass without any issues. I have and will never do stuff like that as long as I have been riding.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by red88carrera

let's say instead of a bike, it's another car, or a pedestrian. What's the difference. Weren't you ever taught not to play in traffic?
See the white line? Bicycles should be to the right of it!

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