Tuscon driver mows down cyclists

[look 171]

Originally Posted by trekkor

Here's a very real perspective I face frequently:



Imagine you are doing 40mph and so is the oncoming vehicle as you come around this blind curve, except it's a truck.
There is a bike in the middle of the lane in front of you.

What are your options?

This screen shot is about two miles from our place and this is a very real scenario I have faced often over the last 23 years.


KT

We have trained on roads like that for years. If people were to ride to the right 2-3' of that road, there should be plenty of room for a car to go around the riders even if they are doing 180 mph.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Red88Carrera

Trust me, I'm not advocating that anyone go out and mow down cyclists. My beef is with the pack riders that are clearly trying to use the pedestrian laws to their advantage. A cyclist isn't a pedestrian. I stop whenever I see someone attempting to cross the street, crosswalk or not. How many times have you seen a cyclist not stop at a stop sign, or red light? If you wanna play in the street, you need to follow the rules.

And how many times do you see cars rolling a stop or simply making a u turn breaking the law. Come on, you have a beef against them because they hold you up for 5 seconds. Now I understand about the packs. They have to take up the whole road in that situation like Trek posted. Usually a pack or riders is out training is hauling butt (by cycling standard) you just have to wait for an opening. They will let you through. It is the small packs that take up the whole lane and chit chat that drive me nuts.

Would you rather get around 40 riders in a single file or wait for a little and get around the pack when the road opens up. It takes only about 5-7 seconds to get around the large pack. I have driven around packs of 60 riders in a couple seconds.

[Joe Bob]

[WolfeMacleod]

Originally Posted by jyl

Rodney Kincaide Jr dba "Scatterbrane Pickups LLC"?

Yeap. Can't believe it. We spoke on a fairly regular basis. Helped him out quite a bit.

[fintstone]

40 or more riders in a group is, by definition, dangerous. Riders don't help themselves or their reputation by doing so. It seems like in groups over 3 or 4, they become a rolling mob, you would think they were a bunch of bikers on Harley's by the way they act.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by look 171

And how many times do you see cars rolling a stop or simply making a u turn breaking the law.

I rarely see cars run stop signs. It is much more rare to see a cyclist stop for one. I can't even remember the last time I saw someone going half the speed limit in a car that refused to move over, don't know that I ever have. The per capita a-hole ratio is just way higher for cyclists. The story that precipitated this thread is almost certainly not completely accurate.

A sting where the police bust the cyclists for riding inconsiderately, that is just precious.

Again, just because you can, does not mean you should.

[jwgn777]

Whether the cyclists were right or wrong in the eyes of the law the driver has no justifiable reason for his actions.

[Baz]

Folks........there are PLENTY of AZZHOLES driving cars and riding bikes.

They all suck so let's not split hairs.

The problem has always been law enforcement focusing on radar traps rather than inconsiderate driving/riding.

Where do they think ROAD RAGE comes from......it's not speeding I assure you.

Duh.....

[911_Dude]

Im a city cyclist, but I also drive a car and get plenty annoyed at bike groups riding 2, 3, or more across the lane for no good reason. My club always calls "Car back" and moves to single file as soon as possible when a car is spotted coming from behind.

As an FYI to non-bike riders, here are some reasons why a cyclist sometimes does what he does, be it right or wrong:

- Riding left of the shoulder (in the lane): In almost all cases, this must be done unless you have off-road tires. Road bike tires are very high pressure and very thin. The pebbles and glass on a common shoulder is a no-go and will easily result in a flat in most situations.

- Not riding as for to the right as possible (lane block): A defensive move on say, a narrow two lane or dense city traffic. The thinking being, if a car tries to pass he will have to pass very close to the bike, miss calculates, and the bike gets run off the road. Remember, even if its just a tap from the mirror to the handle bar, its an immeadiate spill for the biker. Also, city traffic with cars parked to the right- Getting "Doored" from someone popping open their car door to get out is always a danger.

In most cases, yielding for a few seconds to a biker will be all it takes for the hurried driver to be on his way. Its really not worth hurting someone or going to jail over to "prove a point".

[Baz]

Originally Posted by jyl

---snip---
What needs to be done is some stings. Get a video camera in an unmarked sheriff's car, record what Jeff described, then light 'em up, write the whole group citations, impound all the bikes as evidence. Word will get around quickly.

If it is such a problem in your area, deal with it productively. Get newsies, motorists' groups, commercial drivers, etc together, pressure law enforcement.

---snip---

EXACTLY!

I'm not against cyclists anymore than I'm against gay marriage.

But when they do stuff that is against common sense they bring down their cause.

Plenty of cyclists (Look 171 is one) despise inconsiderate cyclists.

I bet there are plenty of gays who do NOT want all the negative publicity from gay rights activists.

I think that is a valid analogy.

Law enforcement doesn't care.

The result is ROAD RAGE.

Dumb dumb dumb.....and not necessary is common sense is applied.

[TheCabinetmaker]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

Sound like the driver probably shouldn't be allowed a pistol permit!

With a felony conviction pending, it is likely he wont ever get to legally own a firearm in the future.

If only the bike riders were armed, that would have been a big surprise for the prick **** head who attempted murder of the innocent bike riders.

Of course from the title of the article, i expected the ******* felon to be driving a john deer mower not an Oldsmobile.

the bike riders injured should have a nice civil law suit aginst this prick, hopefully they will clean him out, and he will loose everything!

[Rick Lee]

You don't need a permit in AZ to carry and Pima County is not a real carry-heavy place anyway, due to its politics. Anway, the idiot driver is posting on The Gear Page about this, really hurting himself and giving great fodder for the lawyers. What an idiot. Looks like Wolfe will have one less competitor because this guy will be bankrupted no matter where the criminal case goes.

[TheCabinetmaker]

Originally Posted by Tobra

I rarely see cars run stop signs. It is much more rare to see a cyclist stop for one. I can't even remember the last time I saw someone going half the speed limit in a car that refused to move over, don't know that I ever have. The per capita a-hole ratio is just way higher for cyclists. The story that precipitated this thread is almost certainly not completely accurate.

A sting where the police bust the cyclists for riding inconsiderately, that is just precious.

Again, just because you can, does not mean you should.

sometimes it is more considerate for a bike to roll thru (slowly and carefully) a stop sign than to stop completely. Or do teh stop sign dance (ie balancing while baley moving forward) specially going up hill. I have seen to many car driveres get p[issed at bike riders for stopping, and then taking more time to get moving again to clear the intersection. car drivers want to move fast, to restart the bike from a dead stop, going up hill, with feet on the ground requires more time to get going, and means your in the intersection longer. Car drivers dont like that slow action. So often it is more considerate and safer to slowly roll thru a stop.

I would be more worried about the car that runs a stop sign, the potential for injury to someone else is so much greater than when a bike rolls a stop.

and just last month I was in my Porsche and was nearly nailed at a four way stop by a SUV that was speeding and ran thru the stop sign with not so much as a bit of slowing down.

I have never been injured by a rouge bike rider, I have been injured pretty badly by car drivers more than a few times, (broken back, surguries, conconsions) and was struck once by an out of control roller blader.

Car drivers are the real problem, the worse a bike ever did to me, was delay me a few seconds. Car drivers have nearly killed my three times.

I have zero fault accidents.

You cant be too careful.

hopefully the ******* bike rammer will see the butt **** side of prison, catch AIDS, and loose everything he owns.

[Jeff Higgins]

Let's not lose sight of another very important point - these cyclists out on the open road are recreating, pursuing their sport, just having fun - and putting all other road users at risk in doing so. As such, they really have no "right" to do this.

Oh, I know - cyclists are more "green", and therefore somehow more "noble" than motorists. I can almost see that when they are commuting and taking yet another car off of the road. At least so long as they are not holding up motor vehicles and causing even more congestion (and therefore pollution) than they would be if they simply drove. But, when they take to the road purely for their own entertainment and enjoyment, that all goes out the window.

I can see slow moving farm vehicles and the like having a right to the road. They are working, rather than merely engaging in some recreational pursuit. This is far different than some cyclist playing on our public roads. And, in the end, that is really all they are doing - playing, and selfishly expecting everyone else to accomodate them.

[Paul_Heery]

Not only are these cyclists menaces, they are bad for the environment

http://blog.cascade.org/2013/03/legislator-to-small-business-owner-bicycling-bad-for-the-environment/

—————————- Original Message —————————-
Subject: RE: No new bicycle tax
From: “Orcutt, Rep. Ed”
Date: Mon, February 25, 2013 9:59 pm
To: Dale Carlson
————————————————————————–

Dale,

I am not a fan of much in the House Transportation tax proposal nor of many tax proposals, but I have to admit I think there are valid reasons to tax bicycles. Think about this for a moment: Currently motorists are paying to use their cars on the roads while they are actually driving their cars. At the same time, they are paying for bike lanes because there is no gas tax — or any transportation tax — generated by the act of riding a bike on the roadways. So, if cars pay for the roads they are using, it only makes sense that bicyclists would also be required to pay for the ‘roads’ they use when they are actually biking on them.

Also, you claim that it is environmentally friendly to ride a bike. But if I am not mistaken, a cyclists has an increased heart rate and respiration. That means that the act of riding a bike results in greater emissions of carbon dioxide from the rider. Since CO2 is deemed to be a greenhouse gas and a pollutant, bicyclists are actually polluting when they ride.

I know, you own a car and drive so are paying gas tax — but not while you are riding your bike. When you are driving your car and generating gas tax you are also driving on the roads so are only really paying for the roads when driving — not while biking.

Sorry, but I do think that bicyclists need to start paying for the roads they ride on rather than make motorists pay.

Ed

Representative Ed Orcutt
20th Legislative District

Olympia Office:
408 John L. O’Brien Building
PO Box 40600
Olympia, WA 98504
O ed.orcutt@leg.wa.gov
e 360.786.7990

—–Original Message—–
From: Dale Carlson
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 9:40 PM
To: Orcutt, Rep. Ed
Subject: NC: No new bicycle tax

HOUSE INTERNET E-MAIL DELIVERY SERVICE

TO: Representative Ed Orcutt

FROM: Dale Carlson(Non-Constituent)

SUBJECT: No new bicycle tax

MESSAGE:

People who choose to ride a bicycle instead of driving a car actively
reduce congestion, save wear and tear on our roads and bridges, and reduce the state labor needed to patrol our highways. Additionally, bicyclists produce fewer emissions and reduce healthcare costs through increased physical fitness. Therefore, it is unfair for bicyclists to subsidize the construction and maintenance of highways that they impact far less than the motorists. If anything, new bike purchases should earn a $25.00 tax credit because of the savings they provide to the state.

Not only do I believe that a bike tax is unfair in principle but the proposed amount is disproportionately large compared to vehicle excise taxes in the state. A tax of $25 on a $500 bicycle purchase is 5% of that sale. The vehicle excise tax in the proposed package for the state is 0.7%. The federal government even offers tax credits on electric vehicles, up to $7,500 depending on the value of the vehicle. It’s absurd that Washington state plans on taxing bicyclists while such a credit system exists to promote energy efficiency. Bicycles are far more efficient even than electric cars. Bicyclists already pay substantial sales, property, and federal taxes which fund two-thirds of transportation spending in Washington. Bicyclists who own cars pay the same license tab and other car-related taxes even if they drive less.

This new tax would also hurt the bicycle industry in the state of Washington, an industry that already competes with internet vendors and bordering states with lower sales tax. Bicycle stores near the edges of our state have been impacted for years by the reduced sales tax in Oregon and Idaho. Residents would have 25 more reasons to purchase bikes outside of Washington should this proposal pass. In-state bicycle sales would also be lost to internet vendors based elsewhere which neither pay taxes in Washington nor employee residents of Washington. Surely the loss of tax revenue on in-state bicycle sales would offset the forecasted gains from the proposed tax.

Dale Carlson, Owner
Bike Tech
Olympia, Lakewood, Tacoma

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

You don't need a permit in AZ to carry and Pima County is not a real carry-heavy place anyway, due to its politics. Anway, the idiot driver is posting on The Gear Page about this, really hurting himself and giving great fodder for the lawyers. What an idiot. Looks like Wolfe will have one less competitor because this guy will be bankrupted no matter where the criminal case goes.

FYI: LINK

4 pages so far.....

[Joe Bob]

Was waiting for someone to post that drivel.....there should be a law about electing officials that have been lobotomized.

as to group rides like group drives....there is always a few douchenozzles that ruin it for the rest. As such, I ride and drive alone....I prefer to be my own douche.

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Let's not lose sight of another very important point - these cyclists out on the open road are recreating, pursuing their sport, just having fun - and putting all other road users at risk in doing so. As such, they really have no "right" to do this.

Oh, I know - cyclists are more "green", and therefore somehow more "noble" than motorists. I can almost see that when they are commuting and taking yet another car off of the road. At least so long as they are not holding up motor vehicles and causing even more congestion (and therefore pollution) than they would be if they simply drove. But, when they take to the road purely for their own entertainment and enjoyment, that all goes out the window.

I can see slow moving farm vehicles and the like having a right to the road. They are working, rather than merely engaging in some recreational pursuit. This is far different than some cyclist playing on our public roads. And, in the end, that is really all they are doing - playing, and selfishly expecting everyone else to accomodate them.

Well, then, lets take that to it's ultimate conclusion. Drivers who are aren't going to work or doing work just shouldn't be selfishly expecting everyone else to accommodate them, either. Roads for working people only.

[jyl]

I rarely see a cyclist breaking the speed limit, but I routinely see drivers doing so. Of course, everyone who is doing 30 in a 25 or 70 in a 65 says there is nothing unsafe about it. Probably the cyclists who slow to 5 and look-roll through a stop would say the same thing.

When there is no traffic around, I slow-look-roll through stops. When there are cars at or approaching the intersection, I stop fully. I always stop fully at red lights with one exception (a signal on my morning commute that will never change for me - I've tried waiting, the sensor just doesn't detect the bike, and at that hour, the signal is set to stay red indefinitely absent a car triggering the sensor - and at 5:15 am there is no car on that street for as far as I can see, at least four blocks in either direction - so I slow-look-roll through).

I have no patience with riders who blow through stops without slowing down (I see this not that often). Or riders who don't have lights at night (ninjas: I see this frequently). Or who ride against traffic (salmon: I seldom see this).

[Baz]

Another earlier thread that was locked:

LINK