NYPD shoot hammer weilding man

[Jeff Higgins]

The European countries represented in the chart do a far better job of tracking shootings by their police than we do here in the U.S. They account for each and every one of them without fail under a mandatory nationwide reporting system, with their federal governments compiling those records. Here in the U.S., reporting to the federal government by individual police departments is optional. Do the research - the information regarding our lackadaisical national record keeping vs. other countries very precise recording is pretty well documented.

What this means is that we have exact numbers from the European countries used for comparison, and incomplete, inexact numbers from us. "Incomplete" means those inexact numbers are low, with many agencies not reporting at all (those numbers certainly cannot be high, because no one would have any reason to over report and pad their numbers).

That leaves us, again, even using our under-reported numbers, at least 200 times (and approaching 400 times) the rate of comparable European countries. Hell, as under reported as our numbers are, it could be even double or triple that. But, for the sake of discussion, let's use the lowest number, the very best case for U.S. law enforcement - that still leaves us at 200 times the rate of comparable countries.

If we were talking something like birth defects, some rare disease, suicides, kids getting mowed down in school zones, or virtually anything else other than police shootings, we would be demanding answers. Such a monstrous statistical outlier very emphatically shouts "Houston, we have a problem". It's time we look into this, figure out just why we are so out of bed with the rest of the world, and take the steps necessary to correct it.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Denis, the point is that many love to use this as their platform for an eff the police diatribe, and it's the exact same people. The vast majority (I'll use it again) of cops are good people doing a dangerous and thankless job. A few bad ones aren't, and we hear about it on the news. Now I'll leave you kids to your fun.

[speeder]

I have plenty of cop friends and love them to death. Don't even expect them to be perfect angels, I'm not. But the whole shoot/don't shoot thing is the absolute essential part of a cop's unique set of skills. If they're incapable of that difficult challenge, (or worse yet, criminal), they cannot be on that job.

[Rick Lee]

I agree with Jeff. But let's compare apples to apples. Our population dwarfs that of any European country and there is (relatively speaking) no gun culture in any of those countries. I've been pulled over in Germany and Austria a few times. I'm pretty sure the cops, as they were walking up to my car, were more worried about getting struck by lightning than that I might jump out and shoot them. I can't remember hearing about a cop getting shot at a traffic stop anywhere in Europe, and it would be national headlines for months if it happened. I know three German cops well and none of them have the remotest fear of getting shot on the job. One had to get special permission to bring home his service weapon to show me. Very different gun mentality over there.

I can't explain why it happens, but there are a ton of insane criminals in the US who shoot cops at traffic stops, when the worst they would have otherwise gotten is a speeding or fixit ticket. Happens all the time here and it's just insane.

[Jeff Higgins]

U.S. population is about 319 million, German 82 million. We are roughly four times their population. U.K. has about 65 million, so let's say we are five times their size. Our numbers are still, even being as generous as possible, massively out of bed with theirs. The very best case scenario we can muster from the raw numbers is a rate that exceeds these other countries by 40-50 fold.

Like I said, if this were any other social or health issue, we would be demanding answers. Instead, we see folks doing their level best to justify these numbers.

[Mike80911]

I am not doing my best to "justify those numbers" If you read and comprehend several of my posts I simply said to post numbers or graphs without facts is not presenting the whole picture. It is simply attempting to create an anti cop atmosphere. If you do not like Police that is fine they do not care about that they will still be there for you if you ever need them.
But you convinced me with your chart taken from a larger article that states in some of these countries the Police do not even carry guns. Police cannot be trusted they are out killing everyone they see for no reason at all. Thank you for making me see the light.
By the way I was taught killing any of Gods creatures is wrong even rats.

[Jeff Higgins]

Settle down, Mike. I am in no way trying to create any kind of anti-cop atmosphere, nor have I ever said I do not like cops. I'm merely putting data out there for discussion; data that clearly points to a massive disparity between American police and other police in a very important arena - how many citizens they shoot.

And no, British police do not carry guns. They have not for a very long time. Your reaction to this little revelation is quite telling, essentially being "of course they don't shoot people - they don't have guns!". The greater implications are apparently lost on you.

Hint: maybe they don't carry guns because they have figured out how to police without them. Don't think for a minute their grittier areas in their bigger cities are any less laden with violent crime than ours. No, that's not the difference. Not at all. The Brits, the Germans, the Aussies, and many others have seemingly figured out something that wholly alludes American police.

[motion]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

The Brits, the Germans, the Aussies, and many others have seemingly figured out something that wholly alludes American police.

I'll tell you what they've figured out: Police in Italy wear dark blue business suits. Police in the USA wear military-style uniforms. You tell me how that sits with the general public and how it might contribute to their attitudes towards police.

[rusnak]

Cops have a very difficult job.

Personally, I want them to have guns. We live in a dangerous country. I have no problem with the concept of cops shooting people.

Justified or un-justified is a case by case analysis, not a statistical comparison to other countries. There is no point in looking at the bigger picture.

[Rick Lee]

Most bad guys in Europe don't have guns. And that goes double for the good guy. There simply are so many fewer guns in the civilian population there that the chances of cops needing to use deadly force is very remote. When I was living in Germany, there was a store robbery around the corner from my dorm. Some American buddies witnessed the whole thing and followed the perp so they could lead the cops to him. Perp had a blank gun and the cops still didn't shoot him. The figured it was so unlikely to be a real gun, that they just tackled him. Obviously, that could never happen in the US. But guns grow on trees here, both with bad guys and good guys. I really have more of a problem with cops shooting people's dogs.

[Mike80911]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Settle down, Mike. I am in no way trying to create any kind of anti-cop atmosphere, nor have I ever said I do not like cops. I'm merely putting data out there for discussion; data that clearly points to a massive disparity between American police and other police in a very important arena - how many citizens they shoot.

And no, British police do not carry guns. They have not for a very long time. Your reaction to this little revelation is quite telling, essentially being "of course they don't shoot people - they don't have guns!". The greater implications are apparently lost on you.

Hint: maybe they don't carry guns because they have figured out how to police without them. Don't think for a minute their grittier areas in their bigger cities are any less laden with violent crime than ours. No, that's not the difference. Not at all. The Brits, the Germans, the Aussies, and many others have seemingly figured out something that wholly alludes American police.

Yes everything you say gets lost on me. You are without a doubt the smartest person in the room. I will let you have the last word and prove your point that your chart makes total sense and all of the missing facts within it can be lost on you. Good night

[bivenator]

Houston lost an officer last nite. While we were sleeping he was out there laying spike strips to stop two armed robbers. They (allegedly) swerved to hit him as he was on the roadside deploying the strips. Thank you for you service. Godspeed.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Mike80911

Yes everything you say gets lost on me. You are without a doubt the smartest person in the room. I will let you have the last word and prove your point that your chart makes total sense and all of the missing facts within it can be lost on you. Good night

Wow. So you really are incapable of a rational, adult discussion about this issue. All you seem to be able to conclude is that I must hate cops and I'm picking on you. That's too bad.

I only posted one chart, as an example of the information available. It is certainly not definitive, nor the only source of such information. Folks have been studying and discussing this huge disparity for an awfully long time. It is very real. Let's try not to just focus on one chart - it is merely representative. Accurate, and supported by a great deal of readily available information but, again, merely posted as an example.

So, Rick - do you think our hammer wielding assailant would have been shot by German cops? Would they have used up one of their half dozen a year shootings on a guy like this? I don't think they would have, but that's just my opinion. And I think the cops involved would have all still gone home to their families, uninjured, and ready for work again the next day.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

So, Rick - do you think our hammer wielding assailant would have been shot by German cops? Would they have used up one of their half dozen a year shootings on a guy like this? I don't think they would have, but that's just my opinion. And I think the cops involved would have all still gone home to their families, uninjured, and ready for work again the next day.

I also don't think German cops would have killed the guy. Obviously, someone wielding a weapon against cops and/or ignoring orders to drop it, per our laws and customs, warrants the use of deadly force by cops and sometimes by civilians. I don't think that's going to change. There are a lot of legally (not necessarily morally) justified cases of deadly force by the police here that I think could have been handled differently. Some of those cases where the retarded kid's folks call the cops for help or the deaf/mute person can't understand the cops and they end up shooting them are just heart-wrenching. But I can't see the guidelines here ever changing from "shoot someone with a weapon their hand" to "must try all non-lethal means first." I just can't see it happening.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I also don't think German cops would have killed the guy. Obviously, someone wielding a weapon against cops and/or ignoring orders to drop it, per our laws and customs, warrants the use of deadly force by cops and sometimes by civilians. I don't think that's going to change. There are a lot of legally (not necessarily morally) justified cases of deadly force by the police here that I think could have been handled differently. Some of those cases where the retarded kid's folks call the cops for help or the deaf/mute person can't understand the cops and they end up shooting them are just heart-wrenching. But I can't see the guidelines here ever changing from "shoot someone with a weapon their hand" to "must try all non-lethal means first." I just can't see it happening.

I agree, Rick. Unfortunately I don't see it ever changing either. Our only hope would be to have our citizenry wrest control of our police back from our police. Somewhere along the way they have determined we serve them, their interests come first, and us poor dumb citizens don't know enough about police work to have any say in it. The current headlong rush into militarization speaks volumes towards that; most citizens are against it, but what do we know?

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I agree, Rick. Unfortunately I don't see it ever changing either. Our only hope would be to have our citizenry wrest control of our police back from our police. Somewhere along the way they have determined we serve them, their interests come first, and us poor dumb citizens don't know enough about police work to have any say in it. The current headlong rush into militarization speaks volumes towards that; most citizens are against it, but what do we know?

I mean, that sounds good. But then I think of how they do it in Germany, which is nothing at all like what you write above and they still have a negligible number of deadly force cases. The cops there are armed to the teeth. I've seen vans full of cops carrying MP5s and dogs, standing around a traffic circle in the middle of nowhere. They always have cops with SMGs and dogs on the trains to the soccer games. All their cops, even if state or city, wear pretty much the same uniforms, all the cars look alike, they're like totally anonymous uniformed guys anywhere you see them. They don't walk a beat and get to know everyone in the neighborhood. There's no community policing. You'll never get to know one who will know your name the next time he walks by. I think German culture is generally very observant of the law and so their cops tend to be focused on real criminals like neo nazis, terrorists, etc. They don't see every single traffic stop as a potential felony arrest or chance to swing their dicks around. There's a cultural difference there that will never exist here. Might also be that the personality types drawn to LE in Germany are very different from the types drawn to LE careers in the US.

[speeder]

This is a good start:

Obama to limit military-style equipment for local police departments - LA Times

[Rick Lee]

I agree, but you know it's not gonna take anything away they already have and certainly won't change the culture, training or recruitment.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Genies don't willingly go back into bottles.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I mean, that sounds good. But then I think of how they do it in Germany, which is nothing at all like what you write above and they still have a negligible number of deadly force cases. The cops there are armed to the teeth. I've seen vans full of cops carrying MP5s and dogs, standing around a traffic circle in the middle of nowhere. They always have cops with SMGs and dogs on the trains to the soccer games. All their cops, even if state or city, wear pretty much the same uniforms, all the cars look alike, they're like totally anonymous uniformed guys anywhere you see them. They don't walk a beat and get to know everyone in the neighborhood. There's no community policing. You'll never get to know one who will know your name the next time he walks by. I think German culture is generally very observant of the law and so their cops tend to be focused on real criminals like neo nazis, terrorists, etc. They don't see every single traffic stop as a potential felony arrest or chance to swing their dicks around. There's a cultural difference there that will never exist here. Might also be that the personality types drawn to LE in Germany are very different from the types drawn to LE careers in the US.

I've spent a great deal of time in Germany, both visiting and living with relatives and for work. I agree with your description, and certainly didn't mean to imply anything different about Germany and its police. They are very, very professional, but certainly not personable. You cannot just stand around an b.s. with one and get to know him, like you can with friendly American cops.

I think having the neighborhood beat cop is a huge plus for everyone involved here in the U.S. They get to know the people, the people get to know them, and everyone likes and trusts one another. I think when it gets too impersonal, like with the big SWAT teams, is where it starts to go awry.

That, and when cops on a beat have lost all respect for those they police. I put the onus for that squarely upon the folks in neighborhoods like that, not on the police. I would imagine one can only spend so much time with folks with no self respect before you lose respect for them as well.

Yes, it's a tough job. A very, very tough job, and much tougher in some places than others. I get all of that, and I have nothing but respect and thanks for those who do it. I just wish we could have a rational, adult conversation concerning why so many more of us get shot by our police than in other countries. Yes, our armed population has to be a factor, but far too many police shoot far too many citizens that are clearly unarmed. Citizens that simply would not get shot in other countries. I think it's time we ask "why?" and take steps to correct this situation.