Are we not talking about the way cool new Tesla lorry and Roadster?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by motion

Model 3s are everywhere in California. A lot of smart people drinking the koolaid.

I've only seen 5 or 6 of them but Model S's are like Camry's here.

[Holger]

Originally Posted by Nevergrowup

That's a myth.

I dont think so, but I cannot back it up atm.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Nevergrowup

That's a myth.

If you equate the cost to produce to energy consumption used to manufacture, then add in the energy costs over the life, this is quite true.

[red-beard]

https://phys.org/news/2012-10-green-toxic-norwegians-electric-vehicle.html

[Nevergrowup]

Hm! The toxicity stuff was news to me (even as the study is Norwegian!), but I've read several studies that even including the production of the EV, AND the source of electricity, the total emissions is lower for an EV - but that might just be about CO2...

"By the end of their lives, gas-powered cars spew out almost twice as much global warming pollution than the equivalent electric car. "

From this, in 2015, so it would be even better now: https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions#.WyEJ2dIzaUk

Just one example, from a very quick Googling.

[Holger]

That is the problem, people only look at (or get presented) a part of the "problem", and that part is always in favour for the EV.
Look at the complete lifecycle, from production to consumption and recycling, of an EV and the impact is negative.

[Nevergrowup]

Yeah, it looks like it's easy to find articles for each standpoint.

But it the end, it won't matter (well, it will for the planet of course, but that will suffer no matter what mode of transportation we will use in the future), it's just a matter of time before the shift comes. And with more research we get better battery technology (solid state), more efficient charging, and politically forced expansion of charging networks.

With Porsche, Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes, Audi and then all the Japanese manufacturers go all-in, which almost all are steering to already, Tesla will lose their advantage of being first.

- Who the hell would think that I'd advocate for EV's for a couple of years ago? Certainly not me! But it's coming. Exciting, isn't it?

Fast as f*k! Silent. High tech, but still simple, compared to the complexity of a combustion engine.

Of course I love the sound of a high revving engine as much as the next man, but I'm excited for the future nonetheless!

(In Norway, we currently buy MORE electric vehicles than gas and diesel COMBINED! Of course subsidized by the government - no tax on electric, and about 100% tax on fossil cars - a Tesla S cost the same as an equivalent BMW)

[legion]

Electric cars are not economically viable, and as such, they will never be widely adopted. It takes massive subsidies just to get them to a tiny fraction of market share. If those subsidies were removed, the industry would collapse overnight. Barring some major technological developments that would require a total reworking of human understanding of physics, there is no future in them. They are a fad for those who wish to virtue signal their environmental visible sainthood.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by legion

Electric cars are not economically viable, and as such, they will never be widely adopted. It takes massive subsidies just to get them to a tiny fraction of market share. If those subsidies were removed, the industry would collapse overnight. Barring some major technological developments that would require a total reworking of human understanding of physics, there is no future in them. They are a fad for those who wish to virtue signal their environmental visible sainthood.

Yep.

One of my friends is an older retired married guy that got the "green" bug from his grandkids all reciting the propaganda they are taught in schools. He grew up in the 30s and knows first hand about recycling everything. He lived the days of cutting the top and bottom off of every can of food, put the lid inside and flatten it to recycle the steel can. Pop bottles we brought to the grocery store for the deposit.

Anyway he likes to trade cars so he bought a hybrid Honda, and after a couple of years swapped it for a different hybrid. He is one to keep track of the costs, to the penny. He tried to bend the numbers to show it was cheaper for the costs, and reality finally hit him. They were a LOT more expensive to own and operate. He drive a conventional vehicle now.

Only huge tax subsidies make electric vehicles possible. It will bee very interesting to see what the Porsche electric car and all the others do to the market. I predict Tesla will be bankrupt and under a new ownership and still sucking millions in tax subsidies from us. The old "too big to fail" routine.

[Nevergrowup]

No future? Well, perhaps not in the US...

Another, quite large car market, China, might disagree:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-10/china-s-fossil-fuel-deadline-shifts-focus-to-electric-car-race-j7fktx9z

And they're not alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_banning_fossil_fuel_vehicles

And several car makers are announcing a switch to electric only vehicles, EVEN Detroit:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-detroit-electric/global-carmakers-to-invest-at-least-90-billion-in-electric-vehicles-idUSKBN1F42NW

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Nevergrowup

Hm! The toxicity stuff was news to me (even as the study is Norwegian!), but I've read several studies that even including the production of the EV, AND the source of electricity, the total emissions is lower for an EV - but that might just be about CO2...

"By the end of their lives, gas-powered cars spew out almost twice as much global warming pollution than the equivalent electric car. "

From this, in 2015, so it would be even better now: https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions#.WyEJ2dIzaUk

Just one example, from a very quick Googling.

The more something costs, the more energy it took to produce. Total lifecycle cost including production, operation and post operation recycling is proportional to energy cost and therefore CO2.

Lithium is chosen for weight and energy density. Lead acid is still more cost effective and recyclable.

[Holger]

Originally Posted by Nevergrowup

No future? Well, perhaps not in the US...

Another, quite large car market, China, might disagree:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-10/china-s-fossil-fuel-deadline-shifts-focus-to-electric-car-race-j7fktx9z

And they're not alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_banning_fossil_fuel_vehicles

And several car makers are announcing a switch to electric only vehicles, EVEN Detroit:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-detroit-electric/global-carmakers-to-invest-at-least-90-billion-in-electric-vehicles-idUSKBN1F42NW

Yes, until the next hype turns up

[island911]

Originally Posted by legion

Electric cars are not economically viable, and as such, they will never be widely adopted. It takes massive subsidies just to get them to a tiny fraction of market share. If those subsidies were removed, the industry would collapse overnight. Barring some major technological developments that would require a total reworking of human understanding of physics, there is no future in them. They are a fad for those who wish to virtue signal their environmental visible sainthood.

No one is willing to tell me how Telsa will be profitable.

They couldn't do it selling $100k+ cars --lots of them. So how are they going to do it selling more cheaper cars?

I get that the value is good, especially for the Norsks, where the competition (petrol cars) have 100% tax, and the Tesla does not. But is that going to make Tesla profitable?

Does Tesla even care to be profitable? When Mercedes announced that they would drop a billion on a US electric car Musk's response was Good, that's why Tesla exists... to prime the tech (paraphrasing). A competitive interest would be "ours is better..." or some such.

Tesla has received Billions in investment from bright-eyed unicorn chasers. Motion will tell us how smart these people are. Are they?

[Por_sha911]

Lets be clear on one thing: the switch by major car companies is NOT for any other reason than they see the handwriting on the wall and know that well meaning but IMO misguided environmentalists steering political decisions. Politicians are caving to pressure to make decisions to be popular (read:be elected) with voters who don't always know why they believe things to be good or bad.

Example: ethanol in gas. Yes, we needed to get rid of MTBE because the environmental impact to ground water but we need to find a better solution than ethanol which reduces the amount of energy per gallon (lower power or MPG), uses more energy to produce it, and drives up the cost of virtually all food we eat (via the demand for corn). In spite of all the facts, politicians will not let go of this fiasco because they bet the farm (pardon the pun) pushing it through. No one wants to admit it was a mistake.

The choice to go electric by these companies is to avoid being shut out by regulations (good or bad) that they see coming in the future. Other than "messiah Elon", with all other companies (to quote the Godfather) "its nothing personal (or environmental), just business"

[flipper35]

We don't need any oxygenate in our gas these days. No MTBE, not E10/E15/E85.

I understand offering it to those that would like to use it, especially for E85 and track days for a little extra power, but don't subsidize it.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

The local dealership must have gotten a trainload of Model 3s delivered recently, have seen several in the last 2 days. Black one last night looked great. White is not a good color for this car.

In May, the Model 3 became the best selling mid-sized premium sedan in the U.S.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by Nevergrowup

Hm! The toxicity stuff was news to me (even as the study is Norwegian!), but I've read several studies that even including the production of the EV, AND the source of electricity, the total emissions is lower for an EV - but that might just be about CO2...

"By the end of their lives, gas-powered cars spew out almost twice as much global warming pollution than the equivalent electric car. "

From this, in 2015, so it would be even better now: https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions#.WyEJ2dIzaUk

Just one example, from a very quick Googling.

Please let me know how if there is a study comparing the emissions if you own the same gas-powered car 3x or 4x the length of time you own an EV car.

I have no facts to to back up my theory but if people are serious about being green then the best way is not to replace your car every few years as most people do as they are worried about not keeping up with their neighbors

I'd also like to know what area of Aline forest is needed to offset the use of one old diesel smoker 4x4

Formula E is at the forefront of EV technology and all sorts of environmentally friendly facts and figures are shouted out to the world but what is never mentioned is it costs £30k an event to cool batteries for four cars.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

The local dealership must have gotten a trainload of Model 3s delivered recently, have seen several in the last 2 days. Black one last night looked great. White is not a good color for this car.

In May, the Model 3 became the best selling mid-sized premium sedan in the U.S.

Teslas always seems to look like a storm trooper helmet in white.

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

Please let me know how if there is a study comparing the emissions if you own the same gas-powered car 3x or 4x the length of time you own an EV car.

I have no facts to to back up my theory but if people are serious about being green then the best way is not to replace your car every few years as most people do as they are worried about not keeping up with their neighbors

I'd also like to know what area of Aline forest is needed to offset the use of one old diesel smoker 4x4

Formula E is at the forefront of EV technology and all sorts of environmentally friendly facts and figures are shouted out to the world but what is never mentioned is it costs £30k an event to cool batteries for four cars.

I would be willing to bet that you are totally correct. The cradle to grave impact of building a new car is probably significant compared to the energy consumption and pollution during its lifetime. If everyone drove an efficient car and didn’t trade cars every 2-3 years it would be a significant impact. But the automakers wouldn’t like that strategy very much either.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Teslas always seems to look like a storm trooper helmet in white.

I can see that. This black one was more Darth Vader. Paint was special.

[sc_rufctr]

Cheap to build and run Carbon scrubbers are on their way. That could change everything.