Reseda Dyno Day - Results

[CamB]

These guys who sell
performance chips are potentially liable for copyright infringement,
since they all use the basic Porsche microcode and make minor
alterations and resell it as their own code in the performance chips.


I guess it is possible.

Has anyone actually been sued (successfully) by a manufacturer? There are hundreds (if not thousands) of chip makers out there for the world's collective vehicle fleet, and this has been going on for a decade. It should have happened by now.

[beepbeep]

Ther is no Porsche microcode...it's Bosch Motoronic and only thing that's Porsche-specific are ignition and fuel- maps, and those are changed when you chip-tune...so answer is: no way Jose.

[dd74]

Everytime I say or write "Porsche," I give "Porsche" five cents. So I guess I'm in good graces with "Porsche."

P.S. Anyone got change for a quarter?

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by Lorenfb
As we all should know, ignition and fuel map data stored in Eproms,
flash devices, and microcontrollers used in Porsche Motronic systems
are copyrighted material controlled by Porsche A.G.

Just ask AMD about copyrighted microcode when they were sued by
Intel over 386 and 486 math coprocessors. These guys who sell
performance chips are potentially liable for copyright infringement,
since they all use the basic Porsche microcode and make minor
alterations and resell it as their own code in the performance chips.

It's the same as if someone changed a couple of pages in the "Porsche
911 Carrera" manual by Bentley Publishers and reprinted and sold it
under a different name. In either case, a microcode or a book, it's an
expression of one's work and as such protected by copyright law. As
you may have noticed, performance chip guys don't acknowledge use
of Porsche's copyrighted material in their literature nor on their websites.

But again, may be Porsche has little concern about the copyright abuse,
since they probably look forward to selling a lot of Porsche parts the
result of damaged engines.

Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2

Loren,
I'm against copyright infringement but I don't see this issue quite the same way. I'm in the software business. If someone else charges one of my customers to modify a piece of software I sold them, puts it on a CD and sells it back to the customer I don't see the harm. My customer has paid me for the software and he's free to do with it what he wants with his copy.
Likewise if Porsche sells a DME and someone modifies the chip/software in it how has Porsche been injured?
-Chris

[ischmitz]

David, same here. I gave so many times that they send a C4 back my way free of charge. Old Ferdi and I are tight....LOL

[David]

Since I got my scanner working again, I thought I'd throw in the dyno sheet for my '79 930. This is from the PO from a couple years ago.

[Jack Olsen]

That chart brings up something I've never understood. Aren't torque and hp curves always supposed to intersect at 5200 rpm?

[CamB]

Yes, but confusingly that chart has different scales for each . Poor effort by DynoJet.

[David]

Yes, actually I think it's 5252 rpm. As CamB notes, 2 different Y scales.

[Lorenfb]

Good Dyno Runs?

Based on the methodology and posts, the data from
the dyno runs reflects amateurism.

What do we know?

1.'72 911 body with a 964 3.6 engine
2. B&B headers & muffler
3. a modified DME box with a switch


What don't we know?

1. transmission and axel ratio
2. rear wheel & tire size
3. flywheel
3. whether the O2 was connected
4. whether the throttle body was stock
5. whether AFM was modified
6. fuel type used and any octane booster
7. the fuel pressure

The key point is how the box was setup for stock.
The owner initially stated he didn't know the
switch position for stock. More importantly, the
stock position may have the timing retarded a
little to show more improvement for the modified
chip mode. It was essentially an unknown black
box with a switch.

Furthermore, any of the variables defined above
can distort/bias the results over what might be
experienced by a stock, e.g. Porsche headers,
964 car by adding a performance chip. The actual
results may be worse when the chip is used with
a stock 964.

No mention by a "third party" of any pinging
or detonation examination. Anyone can "push"
the timing maps and get high dyno numbers at
the expense of a damaged engine.

As has been mentioned, there's no basis for
assuming a 15% loss without actually determining it,
especially since the drivetrain is unknown. This
again misleads other Porsches owners when they make
comparisons against true Porsche numbers.

Bottomline:

There are too many undefined variables and the
methodology sucks.

Conclusion:

Flip a coin!

Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2

[Lorenfb]

Changing data within a program is different than pirating microcode.
Case law says otherwise about microcode copyright infringement.

If you want, seacrh for the Intel versus AMD case. AMD used
(as claimed by Intel) Intel code for the numeric coprocessor
calculations. It was found that sections of code in the AMD processor control store were indentical to Intel. Intel used this against some
asian microprocessor companies.

Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2

[Tyson Schmidt]

Somebody needs a nap.

[CamB]

Can you stop posting the same stuff onto two threads. It is bad form.

Lets put it another way, when (if ever) would you believe. I am actually reasonably distrustful of chip tuning for the very reasons you mention.

However, I would be happy to believe it as true if a completely stock engine was dynoed with the switch in either position, using premium gas (surely what the chip is mapped for). I would be happy with the detonation issue if the dyno man strapped on his sensor and headphones.

Would you be happy then? Or would you find another problem?

[Jack Olsen]

Loren, it was my car at the dyno, and I never presented these results as a truly scientific test of how much power my engine is actually putting out. I suspect most dynos are off, to some extent, and are only really useful when comparing pulls made on the same machine on the same day. We made no attempt to ascertain actual drivetrain loss.

I was interested in getting a ballpark figure for my car, and simultaneously testing the NBD chip in both of its positions. My 964 motor is completely stock, except for the NBD chip and the B&B exhaust.

I did 3 dyno runs. The first was with the performance chip setting, in 3rd gear. The second was with the performance chip setting, in 2nd gear, and the third was with the stock chip setting, in 3rd gear. Nothing else was changed or adjusted, and the car remained strapped to the dyno for all three runs. (The operator was listening for pinging, but as you know, the 964 motor has a knock sensor.)

No one from the chip company was present for the dyno runs, and the engine settings were not changed at all for the NBD chip. They are the same settings I've been running since day one.

[dd74]

Loren:

I like your style. You're dogging our dyno run just like you dogged Steve W. and his posts about his chips. Your doggedness is doggone doggy-style in my book. I don't know, Dog, but umm...what's your beef? Chew toy wore out or something?

I take the dyno runs with a grain of salt. Whatever the case, it was fun and represents about as much of the real world as Arnold Schwarzenegger's cabinet.

As a side note, Jack got me a three-shot cappucino and then I put myself on the dyno. I'm not chipped, but I swear to you, I ran just as fast as Lee Majors...

[Tyson Schmidt]

Originally posted by dd74
Loren:

I like your style. You're dogging our dyno run just like you dogged Steve W. and his posts about his chips. Your doggedness is doggone doggy-style in my book. I don't know, Dog, but umm...what's your beef? Chew toy wore out or something?

I take the dyno runs with a grain of salt. Whatever the case, it was fun and represents about as much of the real world as Arnold Schwarzenegger's cabinet.

As a side note, Jack got me a three-shot cappucino and then I put myself on the dyno. I'm not chipped, but I swear to you, I ran just as fast as Lee Majors...

Yeah, while I made the ring-ging-ging-ging-ging ring-ginging noises while he ran, for the full "Six Million Dollar Man" effect.

I had a double Latte, and was wearing Sketchers with 1" rubber lug-soles. I was breathing normally, and the coffee beans in my Latte were Colombian. I have a 33" inseam, and a 72" wingspan. There are no chips in my brain, and the stock chip on my shoulder. I was in neutral for all three runs.

[Bobboloo]

HP=(Torque ft. lb.) x (RPM divided by 5250)

This is why they cross at 5250rpms.

Edit: that is, if they are on the same scale.

[surflvr911sc]

Originally posted by mjshira
surflvr, can you send it? :-)

I'm a little slow on the uptake here.

The link to the BBRII video is in my sig.

[campbellcj]

FWIW "good" license agreements have clauses that protect the owner of the IP against both "derivative works" as well as reverse-engineering, unauthorized modification (usually tied to warranty terms and/or government regulations), and of course unauthorized re-distribution or resale of said code.

Typically the end-customer/licensee of the code has some rights to customize it or create derivative works based upon it; however, they typically are tightly restricted as to what they can DO with that new code.

I could be wrong, but I think that most engine control programming falls into two camps: (1) complete replacement engine management systems e.g., MoTEC, and (2) modification of DATA such as timing, fuel and boost maps. If you reverse engineeer or disassemble Bosch (or Porsche etc) actual firmware CODE, modify, and resell it...you are asking for BIG trouble.

This is proprietary stuff, not GPL or open-source by any stretch.

I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, but I am in the software biz and spend way too much time around contract specialists & lawyers

[mjshira]

I'm a little slow on the uptake here.

The link to the BBRII video is in my sig.



GOT IT! thanks And thanks dd74 & Tyson Schmidt, I laughed my ass off!