Thoughts on projects?

[oldskhool]

Ive always thought about a 911 project and want some input from people that have done one or started one. Do you think it was worth it and in what stage would you purchase one. Would you bye one that has been part way done and the person has just not finished it, or a stocker that blew a motor 10 years ago and has just been sitting? Or do you think its just a waist of money?
I know a lot of things matter like what I want when its finished so lets just say maybe a early car with a 3.0 or 3.2 or a sc or carrera stripped. Nothing to fancy on the paint. just something to have fun with.
My only experience with a project is my step dad and I built a 1950 panhead from the frame up on a stand in the garage. I had a lot of fun and gained a lot of knowledge from it. I would love to do the same with a 911.

[Crowbob]

It's NOT worth it. Very valuable for the experience. Money-wise: run like as scalded dog. Buy one some other dufus spent all the time and money on. You can get the same (and better) performance from a ricer. On the other hand, you might just end up with the most valuable, sentimentally valuable, possession you may ever own. My kid gets mine when my parking space on this planet expires...

[Hetmann]

This is a decision you make with your gut. It is not rational and it is not an economic decision. You either want to do it or you don't. There's not explaning it. If you do it, you will end up either loving or hating the result.

[Chuck Moreland]

Fun and experience: A+
Cost effectivenss: C
Gettting exactly what you want: A+

If you do ALL the work yourself, it's not that bad cost wise. If you intend to farm out labor, start with a large pile of cash.

[Crowbob]

So Chuck,

Are you willing to part with some finned oil lines for "a not that bad cost"?

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

[89911]

I agree with Chuck. It depends on what you want out of the experience and how you like to spend your free time. Call me crazy, but an evening to work on mine or my brothers car is nirvana. You will never get the kind of experience you could by breaking a car down to the tub and rebuilding it. No, its not financially sound thinking, but for me, this falls under the "enjoyment" listing. If your comparing this to a home kitchen remodel, then run. Just give yourself a generous time frame and do your research. Nothing like driving a car you built your way.

[Chuck Moreland]

Point being that you can drop $10k-$20k in parts into a car plus countless hours of labor, and have a very nice finished car. Basically a new 911 when you are done.

That's not that bad.

[Crowbob]

There you have it, Skhool. In a nutshell: 10-20K PLUS countless hours PLUS what you paid at the initial purchase PLUS maintainence and upkeep. This is definitely not a money issue. If you're thinking about money, you're in the wrong forum. These pelicans know what they're talking about. You won't find better technical discussions anywhere. As far as the reasonableness of absorbing the true costs of restoring Porsches, see Dr. Phil. It's a commitment that is not easily abandoned. Think hard and long. No charge.

[Grady Clay]

oldskhool,

There are three levels of project cars for sale:

First, you can’t believe your good luck. You got there first. The not finished project is just what you want. The price for everything is incredibly low and just completing it you can make money if you resell it. You can’t get your money out fast enough. Not likely, but they are out there.

Third, there are many (most) incomplete projects that if you were PAID to take over they are not worth the time and effort. Many were ill advised from the start and there is no possible way to successfully complete without inappropriate expenditures. The proverbial “money pit.”

The second (middle ground) is more difficult to assess. The project must be what you want. You must be able to complete it within your budget. You should be happy with the results no matter what unforeseen difficulties you encounter. Price and condition are the big issues. How good is your crystal ball. You need to know what you are looking at. Don’t be afraid of putting down a deposit and having things inspected. PPI is critical.

2c

Best,
Grady

[Kevin Stewart]

at porsche prices right now you would be better off buying the nicest running driving car for the money you have, a project will cost you, why do you think the last guy bailed, buy a chassis 3500-4500, buy a motor that is a 3.0 or a 3.2 3500-4500, then you still have a couple grand of parts to buy, for 10k buy a nice car and enjoy it, learn how to do the maintenance, do a couple de's, and have fun, make sure you get a ppi or you will probably not like your new car, stay away from the 2.4-2.7 inless you just feel like rebuidiong a motor, Kevin

[onewhippedpuppy]

Repeat this with me, "Not an investment, not an investment". If you buy a 911 to restore, it will eat your lunch, you will be so far upside down in it you will never get 1/2 of your investment out. On the postive side, what else could you throw your money at that would be this much fun, this side of hookers and cocaine? I bought car #2 on Grady's list, it's a fun driver now, I'm doing little projects as I go, and hopefully next winter I'll be able to tear it down and totally restore it. All depends on what you want. Buying someone else's finished/ almost finished project makes the most financial sense, but these cars aren't about logic and reason. As far as Kevin's comment on the 2.7, a properly rebuilt 2.7 with removed thermal reactors and the head stud issues taken care of can be a great engine, and I don't have a clue what's wrong with a 2.4? The 74- 77 cars with the 2.7 can be a steal due to their bad rep, they have the styling of the later cars but with the lighter weight of the early ones, if you want a bargain look here, just make sure you get a thorough PPI. An added plus is from '76 on the cars were fully galvanized, so rust is LESS of an issue, still check carefully.

[Chuck Moreland]

Matt, the way you say "hookers and cocaine" it almost sounds like a bad thing.

And there is nothing wrong with a 2.4, nor a properly-rebuilt 2.7.

[techweenie]

I've restored vintage 911 projects and come out ahead.

It's possible.

It's also unlikely, since it requires A.) luck and B.) the seller to be uninformed or emotional.

Generally, if you're not planning to resell, working on a project car will result in your being more 'bonded' to the car, and the money won't be a huge deal.

It is certainly possible to end up $10K or more 'upside down' in a 911. But I always ask myself: for the money, what else would I want to own and drive?

[Kevin Stewart]

we all know that if he has limited skills the car will probably continue to be a basket case and never finished unless he has the money to pay some one, as far as the 2.7-2.4 engines they are fine engines if a person knows what they are looking for unfortunetly most new porsche buyers end up with one that has a broken head stud or needs major repair and is left with a bad taste, the 3.0 and up are smoother running cars and easier on the new porsche owner that does little maintenance, there is no reason to do a project if good running cars are about the same price at this point and you can get a ppi on, my thoughts are i would rather see him enjoy a older porsche that he can drive and take apart for the same money, then buy a car someone is dumping with an unknown motor that was probably taken out because of broken head studs or just worn out, Kevin

[rcm]

I've always wanted a 911, from the first time I heard one twist up going up thru the gears. I think the money I spend is worth it because it's part of a dream. I know I will never get the dough back but, it's all about 3rd gear at 4800 r's and, and, and,....

[Crowbob]

So which way are you leaning, Skhool? Do you wanna be a broke air-cooled motor head, a Sunday driver with a few smallish automotive projects to do, or keep the moolah in your pocket and read Excellence Mag. for the vicarious thrill?

[techweenie]

Purchase price: $2800
Getting it to run after 6 years' storage: $300
Getting it driveable: $2200
Body & paint: $3900
Interior: $900
Misc. $700
My hours: fewer than you'd think.

Sold: $13.8K

[techweenie]

Purchase price: $5900 (total basket)
RS clone engine parts & machining: $5800
Engine assembly cost: TBD
Trans reseal: $550
Body work & paint: RS flares, bupers, ducktail $4000
Interior: $500 and counting...
Carrera suspension: $1000
Wheel rebuilding (BBS): $500
Misc: $500
Sale of parts from original car: -$1200

My time: ???

Completion date: ???

Market value: ???

This is one I'm building exactly the way I want it, for street & time trial use.

Will my investment be under market value when I'm done? Maybe. But that's really not the point when you're building one for yourself. It's about getting exactly what you want.

[slope-nz]

What ever you decide to do, understand that you will spend money on a older 911. Start with a 911 with the body you like the most. (before or after 1973) Get the best car you can afford leaving some money to repair or improve as you see fit. This is the start of a project ,before long you will know just were you want to go with your car and you will have experence working on your car. My .02 worth. Randy

[Grady Clay]

Let me expand my recommendations.

My first and foremost admonition is to buy the best example possible. It’s OK to pay too much to get the best possible car. That will come back for your benefit many times over. An unmolested, original car is most desirable. Previous crashes, rust, incompetent work, or someone’s off-the-wall modifications just don’t hack it. As I said before; there are some cars that you shouldn’t buy even if you were PAID.

Don’t buy something you can’t afford if things don’t go perfectly. These are automobiles and Murphy is in control. Leave yourself plenty of “wiggle room.”

Write down for yourself your requirements, goals, budget, and other. Putting it on paper has a sobering effect. We all have dreams and fantasies but be realistic with yourself. Your “plan” can change daily – only you know.

Become an expert. Know what you are looking for and how to recognize it. You want to know more than the seller. You want to be able to tell your mechanic exactly what to look for in a PPI. Gather information; Pelican, WD, BA, Panorama, Excellence, Christopherous, manuals, and more. Start yourself a personal manual; loose-leaf collection from all of the above.

Have your money ready in advance, you never know when opportunity may present itself.

Don’t rely on your own intuition. Ask for help. Clearly there are Pelicans to help with a 911. Get several PPIs from different unbiased shops. Keep in mind the mechanic’s vested interest.


My personal choices….
I like coupes –stronger and my 6’3” fits better.
A ’72-’73 911 coupe would be my first choice. Original paint, no rust, no crash being the most important.
A ’78-~’83 SC coupe. Same reasons.
I wouldn’t care if the mechanicals were worn out because the price would reflect that. Of course you will pay more to rehab the mechanicals than any discount but you know what you have.

Note this is not 911 specific.

My next choice would be an early (’91-94) 1600 cc Miata, original white paint, both tops, low mileage. Fun little car. Of course I would find a way to shoehorn a 2.5+ and 6-speed sequential shift with the MazdaSpeed suspension kit. As light as possible with a full cage.

A 911 is just cooler and better.

3c

Best,
Grady