VIN Experts - Do I have a '65 or a '66 911?

[crayford]

I found the same thing last night I checked the "guide to authenticity" and Paternie's "Porsche 911 Red Book" and both seem to contradict each other. The little red book clearly states the numbers discussed above run until july 65?

Interesting?

[Fleming]

Hi Guys,
This is my opinion.
___________________
You ask a big question: why have there been books published with less than accurate information?

The reprint of the information table in the prior post is a classic example of factory english translated information published for the USA. First published in the Factory Specification Book, it was included in a Stoddard catalog and reprinted (with missing semi-colon - influencing how it can be read) in the Johnson book. By going back to the root information a different meaning (interpretation) is gained.

Also, edited information can remove critical differences. In our example above: two model year's being produced in a calandar year have been lumped together and ascribed to just one model in a number of books. As more people look closer at this information the expanded understanding will continue.

The factory's own "Fact Book" is easily mis-read.

The colume under "Year of Mfg." lists
1965 300 236 - 303 390.

1966 303 391 - 305 100

1967 305 101 - 307 350 (>307 360S)

1967 307 351 - 308 522

Oh-Oh...what happened here? Some where in the middle of that list they went from year of maufacture to describing the model year.. That could screw up anybody!

We have seen that the group 300 236 - 303 390 is really both model year 1965 cars and model year 1966 cars.

Lets look at a breakout of the Model years: (* approximate guesstimate)

"Model year" "Date of Mfg."
1965 911
300 001 - 300 232 Sep 64 to Dec 64 (Correct information verified by the factory includes cars numbered higher than 300 232 and out of sequence)
300 233 - 301 812* Jan 65 to Jun 65


1966 911
301 813* - 303 390 Jul 65 to Dec 65
303 391 - 305 100 Jan 66 to Aug 66


1967 911
305 101 - 307 350 Sept 66 to Dec 66 (Includes the 911S does not include the Targa)
307 351 - 308 522 Jan 67 to Aug 67

Starting with Model year 1968 a complete change was initiiated in ID numbers taking into account: Porsche bodies, Karmann bodies, Coupe, Targa, USA, 911, 911L, 911T, 911S. From that date forward the "Year of Manufacture" morphed into the model year, 1968 cars were made starting Sep 67 but the confusing breakout "Year of Mfg.vs.Model year" disappears.

With more cars coming with serial numbers and paint codes we should be able to narrow the change from 1965 to 1966 model year. * That 301 812 - 301 813 is pure speculation on my part and hopefully the break will be qualified by the actual cars.

Does this answer your question?

Bob
300 149 1965 Model made in 1964
306 956S 1967 Model made in 1966

[Fidalgo911S]

"Does this answer your question?"

Yes it does. Thanks for taking the time to write all this down. I'm taking notes....

[semjon]

Chassis # 302 947 I would guess a production date of about the end of October 1965. Definitely into the Model year 1966 by about 1100 numbers. Your color number of 66xx adds more importance.

If we know of anyone who took factory delivery around this time and have their numbers we can start to get a better fix on the change over number from Model year 1965 to model year 1966.

Well, that can be true. I've got 302831 with build date 11/12/1965 (11th December '65) and a 66xx color number
So, still a '65 but only just

[Fleming]

Will this help the discussion?

[Rick Cabell]

Bob,
Pretty good chart. Very clear to understand.

[Rick Cabell]

My car is 303997, and all the instruments are date stamped 2/66.
I saw something else date stamped 2/66. The rims are 12/65.

[Wayne 962]

I have a big book of serial numbers from the factory that I bought at a swapmeet, and have never seen another copy since. I will have to check this - it has all of this information in there.

When I was working on the Engine Rebuild Book, I found that a lot of the original 30-year old documentation I had contradicted itself, particularly with part numbers. It is nearly impossible to determine 100% the accuracy of some of this information...

-Wayne

[Kobus Brits]

Guys, Now I am confused.
Does the 912 numbers differ from the 911 numbers. As I understood it the 912 is a 911 with a four cylinder engine? My 912's numbers are 351907 and paint code 6606 and is registered as a 1966. Looking at the charts posted the 351 number seems to be way out?
Any comments?

[304065]

Yes, the '12 numbers are all different.

[Fleming]

The 912 expands the number range because both Porsche and Karmann were making bodies and each have a unique serial number.

Starting in calendar year 1967 is the "Targa" body style, with its own numbering.

There are further model breakdown by 911 and 911S but there are no records for separating the two in 1966/67 as both used the common sequence of numbers. Bruce Anderson was able to talk with the factory and has probably the most accurate numbers for 911S from this period.

Bob

[Fleming]

Just got a message from Jim Alton:
Snip>

my paint code is 6405 (Champagne Yellow) and the chassis number is 301382. The car was delivered in Wiesbaden on 21 June 1965.

I do not have a four button dash (which seems to be correct for 301382 according to Brett Johnson's book).

I also have the plain button horn, the windshield washer in the right fender, a leather gearshift boot, a bottom pad which doesn't wrap around the sides of the dashboard, and the wood on the dash doesn't ride in a metal channel. I think all of these are '65 features, and my "Certificate of Authenticity" says my car is a '65.

I believe the four screw horn grills lasted into the middle of the '66 model year.

Jim Alton
snip>

301 382 is a 65.
We're getting closer.
Bob

[Rick Cabell]

Just got back to the office after looking at a car I am trying to buy.
Chassis # 302933. Aluminum ID tag above the gas tank. Washer bottle down by the battery. 4 screw horn grills. Bahama yellow. The car has been stored for 30+ years. It needs a full restoration, but not to rusty. Show 14K miles, the owner thinks it must re original as he know the car from new.

[Rick Cabell]

Well,
After 20+ years of lusting, I am the owner of 911 chassis # 302933.
I justed started going over the car, and got excited and removed the dash pad, hoping for the date of assembly to be written in the yellow grease pencil as are many of the SWB cars. Nope, it only has "933" writen above the tach under the dash pad. 933 is between Semjon's 302831, and Fidalgo911S's 302947. The factory build charts certainly got "flawed" in the translation. By looking at them, up to 303390 was a 65 for sure being built before July 1st of 65. As Bob stated, for Porsche to build 3158 cars between Jan 1st of 65, and July 1st of 65, was not possible.
I was told the ink stamp on the back of gauges, is actually stamped on by Porsche when they install them. For instance, the speedo is metal stamped by VDO at their time of manufacture as 7/65. But the ink stamp is 10/65. All the other gauges are stamped 9/65 in ink. But, by Semjon's DOM as December 11, 1965, my #933 must be build toward the end of 65. That shoots a hole in the ink stamp theory.

[Rick Cabell]

Also, my oil temp sender is stamped 10/65, as is Fidalgo's.

[semjon]

Rick, congratulations with your purchase! Do you have pictures? Would love to see them!

Only one thing confuses me:

Chassis # 302933. Aluminum ID tag above the gas tank. Washer bottle down by the battery. 4 screw horn grills.

You have 4 screw horn grills?? Mine (302831) has 2 screw grills....
And is older (maybe only a few days or weeks) then yours.

I do believe mine has the original fenders.

Back to the drawing board on this one

[Fidalgo911S]

Since posting this question I sent in for the Certificate of Authenticity from PCNA. It states 302947 is a "1965 911 Coupe".

Here's an interesting footnote. The trim pieces between the front fenders and the body (the one right below the winshield on each side) were the same leatherette material found in the interior. John Cramer pointed out they may have run out of the rubber trim strips that day and used some leftover interior material.

Rick - congrats on your purchase. You know the rules- pictures. I also found the VIN to be stamped right below the ashtray if you remove the kneepad. I also found it on the doors but I think that's common knowledge.

[Rick Cabell]

Yeah, I forgot to metion that. You stated you had the 2 screw grills. This car is a virgin, and it's 4 screws. Where did you get your production date of 12/11/65?

[semjon]

I got my production date from my COA and also have a hand written copy from the factory production book.

[Rick Cabell]

I'll get a pic up asap. This girl has been sitting for over 26 years. A little scruffy looking. That's crazy about the fender to cowl seal. Last August when I posted about my 303997 I didn't mention the fact that these seals were differant. There was no rib to the seal that laid between the fender and cowl. Just a piece of material that was about 1/32 of a inch below the surface. I thought that time had somehow rotted off the top of the seal. I cleaned it up with a toothbrush, and saw that wasn't the case. So cool. But, 302933 has the black normal seal. I also went to a mole I have at the factory and they refered to 933 as a 65 model. Oh, and the hood badge is in MINT condition! I removed it, so it wouldn't come up "missing".