Talking points: Any other early engine manufactured, comparable to Porsche quality?

[H.G.P.]

I.e. the early magnesium engine case. Were there rivals of the early times (if any)?

Thanks

[IROC]

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. Are you talking about the case itself? I think Porsche won an award for the '69 case (?) as it was something like the largest sand-cast magnesium casting at the time. Man, my memory sucks on this...

In a somewhat twisted way, speaking of engines in general, the old Toyota 20R/22R engines have quite a following. I would not attempt to compare them to 911 engines, but they were great engines.

Mike

[unclebilly]

Originally posted by IROC


In a somewhat twisted way, speaking of engines in general, the old Toyota 20R/22R engines have quite a following. I would not attempt to compare them to 911 engines, but they were great engines.

Mike

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. Also the Nissan L24 - L28 engines in the Z cars were way ahead of their time.

[Wavey]

While they certainly aren't as mechanically complex as Porsche's Flat 6, the original Swedish-built Saab 4-cylinders, as used in the 900's and Turbos, are legendary for their durability.

[bwell]

The Mercedes OM617 diesel (used in the w123 sedans) is certainly not a performance engine, but has a reputation for quality and life expectancy (300 - 500k miles).

You also have to mention the small block chevy.

[Gene-o]

I think VW aircooled motors are quite comparable, but of course they share some common heritage. As for the the Toyota 20R, I had one in my Celica and it was as bulletproof as they say.

[wholberg]

Since we are getting away from sports cars, I am going to suggest 60's and 70's vintage International Harvester 304 V8's (not AMC). Big, heavy, slow, but with tons of torque, my first Travelall had 175K when I bought it, 225K when I sold it, and I ran into the guy who bought it 6 years later. He used it to pull his horse trailer, and he had 375K on it.

I have had several old IHC's that had 150-200K on them and had never had the heads off.

After 100K or so miles, they would develop this small puff of oil smoke on startup from worn valve guides. Sound familiar??

Here is the last one I sold.

[wholberg]

I couldn't attach the pic.

[bkreigsr]

I think Porsche's casting award came from the one-piece magnisium case on the 915 box.

small block chevy, backbone of America. anywhere from 265 to 402ci. Especially when you consider all the racing applications that have appeared over the years, (and to this day)... open wheel, prototypes, IMSA, IRL, CART, NASCAR, NHRA, etc, etc.

Porsche has some impressive credentials, but.....

[RallyJon]

Cosworth BDA? DFV? Ferrari Colombo V12?

[jluetjen]

My first thoughts were like RallyJon's -- In the mid-to late 60's, any Ford that was touched by Cosworth was pretty much "state of the art" for performance. I'd want to say Ferrari, but the Colombo V12 dates back to the 50's and was only kept "up to date" with the use of the DOHC heads as was introduced on the 275GTB4's. Except for Cosworth, the rest of the British engines were tractor motors. The Fiat Twin-cams were nice and were the first to successfully used belt drives for the cams. The Alfa motors were wonderfully crafted, but once again an early to mid-50's design.

I have to admit though that almost comparable to Porsche's use of Magneseum in the crank-case -- was GM's thin-wall casting for the SBV8. Truely revolutionary. I guess Ford's was almost as good. If you consider that an entire SBV8 weighs less then a Triumph TR6 motor, it's pretty dramatic. I think the ultimate configuration of SBV8 (although technically a different family of engine) was the aluminum blocked Buick/Rover/Triumph 3.5 liter V8 which is by most accounts a gem of a motor.

[DaveE]

The BMW M-10 used in the 1600 and 2002. Later it was turboed in the 320s and made alot of power. Very solid.

[H.G.P.]

Well the reason for asking is "talking points"...i.e. I often have viewers with questions, and I like to reply with remarks about the original features and parts of the car......(original OEM Mahles, Birals, magnesium case etc.,)

So is this an accurate and appropriate statement ..."few sports car engines of the times (69) rivaled the quality of the magnesium 1969 Porsche engine?"

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by H.G.P.
So is this an accurate and appropriate statement ..."few sports car engines of the times (69) rivaled the quality of the magnesium 1969 Porsche engine?"

few sports car engines of the times (69) rivaled the (optional: materials- ) technology of the light alloy 1969 Porsche engine

The combustion chamber design was fairly conventional "hemi" technology for the time. (Don't let the Chrysler hype cloud you to the facts.) The induction was also fairly conventional, although MFI was pretty much state of the art for the time on automotive gas engines. It had been used for 10's of years on diesels and even the ME109 engine. The air-cooling technology was unconventional, but not new. As either Doug Nye or Alan DeCadenet once pointed on the "Porsche - Victory by Design" video, while other car manufacturers were still building engines out of iron, when you looked at a Porsche 911 engine, there was no iron to be seen. Everything was made out of light alloys. Magnesium and aluminum specifically. Just about the only iron or steel in the engine was the crankshaft, the camshafts and the grudgen pins. That was radical.

[randywebb]

The hype about Mopar hemis (which continues today!) was partly b/c a US manf. had finally caught up to 1930's European sports car design - at least in some ways.

[ficke]

At the industry museum in Munich Germany there is a mag. case for 911 engine on display, The award was for a largest pressure cast mag component I believe. Porsche went to Mag. because primarily it was cheaper and of course lighter than ALU. The casting was more accurate and required less machine work than the sand cast ALU. case.
I think it is accurate to say the air cooled 911 engine is rather special, Dry sump, is a primary source of interest, 7 main bearings and the MFI also the use of light alloys etc.. ( which are also used to cut unsprung weight, the lug nuts and front hubs) as for the mag. case, since I have burned a lot of VW cases for good fuel at the dunes it is hard to get real excited over that rarity of that material

[Bill Verburg]

The DOHC Alfa 4 from the '60s were works of art

[randywebb]

and was the offspring of the first engine to use Na filled valves, IIRC

what else? I'd have posted the BMW 4 and the 6; the Toyota inline 6... but other beat me to it.

Did anybody mention the 1950s MB 6 - first use of fuel injection?

[H.G.P.]

OK, will downplay the mag. part (except for the lightweight), and bring up the dry sump (which I know little of the techs).

The 7 bearings, what's the take/special about this?

[KobaltBlau]

Anyone who is interested in this thread would probably enjoy the book "Classic Racing Engines". I think it is fair to classify the 911 engine as a racing engine, and in this category it had many rivals in engineering ingenuity and quality, if not always durability.

The special thing, to me, is that this racing engine ended up in a street car