|
OOOOOOOO MMMMMMMMMMMM GGGGGGGGGGGod!!
Matteo my friend... someone needs to step here AND NOT YOU AGAIN!! This would make my Irish get up in a nasty way... not trying to start anything here but someone needs to make you hole again as the insurance world uses the expression when someone has a loss, and fix this motor COMPLETELY at no additional cost to you!! wow... |
This is unbelievable, worse even than the MM horror stories because of the amount of money spent.
Apparently you have the patience of Job and the restraint of a saint. I think at this point I would want to choke the engine builder. :mad: Good luck, and I hope that you continue to maintain your enthusiasm for the project. |
WOW, Matteo I feel for you this makes my woes with my full size blazer seem like childs play so Timmins is the motormeister of the east, You should go after him that is just plain wrong you used the est of everything and he should take his part of the responsibility, good luck and godspeed on getting this resolved.
|
Chapter Six
So I needed at a minimum. - A new case - 1 rod - Crankshaft plus bearings - New oil pump - New oil cooler - P&C The P&C were scratched and Bob recommended not using them in the current state. I don’t know if LN engineering could fix them or not. As I recovered from the shock it looked clear that very little could be saved from the old engine especially because now I would want 100% accountability from whoever built the new one and asking them to use a set of unknown P&C did not seem to me the smartest idea. I asked Timmins if he was interested in buying back at a decent price any of the non damaged parts that I would not reuse for choice in the new build. This is a copy of our last exchange: As I mentioned to you earlier I wanted to sell some of the parts from the old engine to finance the rebuild… Basically we checked everything properly and the P&C are not suitable, and neither are the cam-housings. Maybe for a street motor, but you can see the scratches on the side of the pistons. The valve gear is fine, and so are the heads, but they have been machine to meet the jugs with the funny groove. Anyway I remember you saying you didn’t want me to be unhappy about the situation… Well considering everything I am a unhappy and a lot poorer. What still bothers me is the case…. I would understand if a mistake had been made putting together the engine, like the white silicone for the sealing (btw the second engine builder, NineMeister said they had never seen anything like that and that COULD have caused some debris to go around inside the engine) or using stock bushing inside the rockers that obstructed the hole for the oil lubrication etc. Also who knows, something might have broken or bad oil put in or a million other reason for the engine to fail. But I keep thinking about the bent case. Which then skews my view of everything else…. Why would you use it? On a $40k engine build! To save $500? I just don’t get it. And I am always the type of guy that is very pragmatic about things and what’s done is done… And I usually blame myself or chance and randomness for various events…. But the bent case keep coming back. And other little things, like the studs that hold the fan into its housing that had only very little thread left, or the chain covers that came out because the bolts (the ones with the rubber seals) could not be screwed in properly as there was no thread left on the case side and needed to be tapped, or the fact that the engine had already been rebuilt once because something had gone wrong between you putting it together and Peter Dawe tuning it… Those things keep coming back… To which he replied OK. On the silicone inside the engine, that was almost definitely used to seal the cylinders into the case, sicne the aftermarket cyinders have no provision for an O-ring, this is recommended practice by CMW.. As you recall they had been removed once to be recoated and it's possible some got separated at that point. I have not seen any evidence whatsoever that that caused any problems. As anyone who knows anything about the 911 engine will tell you, it's not possible for that to effect the operation of the oil pump for several reasons, among which are the fact that if it did cause a problem it would have to be to the scavenge side, which there is no evidence of, and that if it was lager than about 1/8" it would be trapped buy the screen, if smaller it would have passed right through and been caught in the oil filter. I don't much appreciate being called sloppy, that is far from the case. The case did not leak so I seriously doubt that is where the sealant came from, and as for it being in the bottom of the case it had no effect and further was unavoidable given the replacement of the cylinders. Red herring and completely irrelevant. DC730 is $95 for a 3 oz tube so Im very judicious about how it is applied. SO thin you can see through it. As for the rockers, the PURPOSE of the rotated bushings IS to restrict flow OUT of the rockers. The rocker shafts on a 993 are pressure fed, so the holes need to be blocked just as the do not exit on the stock 993 hydraulic rocker. Anyone who understand the 993 oiling system knows that, but again pointed out as a problem. The engine made good pressure and that is that. If it did not then that should have been noticed, I certainly saw full pressure, another red herring. As for the bent case, fine, send it back and I will send you $2000. More than enough to cover that. if you want to return the cam towers send them as well and I can either pay replacement cost or replace them. If you wonder why I used that case, it is because that is what I had at the time. It was repaired, bored to the larger cylinders, and then checked for alignment. Anyone who knows 911 engines will tell you that if the case is even minutely out of alignment then the crank will not spin freely.If it did cause issues it woudl undoubtably be immediate. As for the pistons and cylinders, I sent the cylinders back to Millenium for replating. I also sent them photos of the pistons. They said they were fine. I also replaced the rings with new CMW rings and use their special lubricant and gapped them precisely to their specification. The pistons and cylinders are warranted by CMW for 90 days, period. Millenium guarantees the coating against separation. Given what happend to them due to the fuel wash, that's done. Here is the problem I have. I cannot see ANYTHING I did wrong related to the failure. Everyone I have talked to about it came to the same conclusion: Detonation due to a clogged injector, bad gas or bad tuning. Again, any independent person will tell you that an error in assembly is very obvious, i.e. rod nut coming loose, etc. and if that happens it happens pretty much immediately. I.e. NOT after 3000 miles and five track days. As for it being an oiling failure due to lack of oil: Very unlikely. This nearly always causes blackening of the journal and rod, and even if it was the problem it has to do with oil supply and oil temp, neither of which are attributable to the engine build. I'm not one to hide behind legalities, but in case you do not remember you voided your warranty in two ways: 1) by retuning the engine, and 2) by putting it on the track, plus it was out of warranty on a time basis. We tuned the engine very conservatively laeavign a big margin for knock on 93 octane. The warranty is for defects in materials or workmanship, it is not an unlimited warranty and so far I have seen nothing that contributed to rod failure. EVERY one of your listed complaints has no bearing on the failure. Like accusing me of setting up the valve springs wrong because they were non stock and the newest with the rockers. Why not ask Engine Builder's Supply where they get their modified rockers for solid 993 conversions? Yeah, from me, and I have done hundreds and have four of my own engines running them without incident. Initially I welded the holes shut, now I rotate the bushigns, same effect and zero failures. Kinda like the dings in the distributor gear. Hmmn. Guess who pulled the distributor when he thought the Hall Effect sensor wasn't working, (which turned out not ot be the case) yeah, I'll give you a hint, he also filled the motor with gas. Bottom line on that though is that it didn't have anything to do with the rod failure. So what now? More mud slinging? What's the point. I am not coughing up $6500 so you can have a different motor built. If you want to return the case then that is fine and with the market rate at $1500 or so $2000 is generous. As far as I can see I am not responsible for the rod bearing failure on a MORAL level, so I don't feel obligated to pay for it. Yeah, I have had TWO stock Porsche 993 motors have rod failures at the track. Both unopened from the factory and one with 10K the other with 30K miles. Both with Lydia driving and both on their FIRST weekend on the track. It happens. As they say, that's racing. So what do you want me to do? Buy back parts? Paying what amounts to extortion for something I cannot see being responsible for is out. Let's get to it and get it over with. Lets get down to reason and realize I'm getting burnt here too. I am actually done with Timmins. I have never asked him for a penny. I told him I was unhappy, asked him if he wanted to buy some parts back at 50% of the cost to help me refund the new build and told him he should pay at least for the case…. The above is his last email… Anyway I am moving on. I still have not given up on my dream 911. For the rebuild for me the choice was clear…. Because of the Motec I had narrowed it down to 2 shops. Bob Watson had been helping me for the last year, had a great reputation and was a formidable guy. The other shop was NineMeister. As I was mulling over what to do, how to do it and when an acquaintance of mine called and said he had a 993 based motor to sell as he was “upgrading” his car to a different engine. I could have the engine for cheap. His car was at 9M. The decision had been made for me. |
Truely Sorry to hear about this, think of it as an opportunity to build a better engine
|
He sounds just like the yokle that built my 350 for my blazer and used the best I could buy for parts but when he was to supply the heads he put 305 heads he had laying around (used for track not a 4X4) on for a daily driver and didnt torque the heads down so they blew the head gaskets right away. I say we as a community should let mister Timmins know what we think of him not taking any responsibility for his end of the build hiding behind his warrenty disclaimer.
|
I thought long and hard about writing this recap.
I do not think Timmins is dis-honest. I really don't. I personally think this build was over his head. I think he believes he's a good engine builder but in fact he isn't. It is not his fault that he was put into this. As I mentioned earlier what bothers me is having used the bent case. As per the engine blowing up who knows? I certainly do not have a single proof that the failure was caused by anything he did. I really don't know what happened and both Bob Watson and Colin Benton at 9M could not/would not say what went wrong. I am very pragmatic about these things. I made the decision of going with Timmins. If he's not good enough it is not his fault. It's like as if someone invested in a company and then ended up losing money because the company did not perform as well as expected. They should have done their research better before investing. And so should I. I eventually decided to write everything because of the tone of his last email. After everything I went through with this engine I get a nasty reply as if I am bothering him ??? In all honesty I know what I paid Timmins, and I know what the parts cost and how much was the labor. He didn't make much more on my engine than on a stock rebuild. Plus he probably ended up spending much more time on my build than any other. That is why I never asked for an all out financial compensation from him (and as I said above there is little proof). But I think this is another chapter of the story that deserved to be told. If anybody asked me about Timmins I would say that up until the end he had been a nice, ready to help guy. Maybe a bit arrogant at time, but always nice. Looking at how things went for me I would not use him again. Maybe we have both been unlucky. Again I do not think Timmins is the MM of the East Coast. I do not thing he did anything with malice.... He was just in above his head... |
That reply sounds just like the self-absorbed pr--k I did buisness with. I'm very sorry you got mixed-up with this guy Matteo.
|
Quote:
That would be chapter seven. The engine is in he car.... dyno sometime this week.... it is sweet... |
Teo, it sounds like you're on the road to recovery, and in good hands.
I'm 100% with you on this, and this is what makes Timmins' digging in on his position of "no fault" completely insulting: He used that friggin' case that should've been used as a planterbox. The ultimate in shortcuts on this expen$ive rebuild. Who knows what others he took. Our hearts go out to you, and cannot wait for the day you post with a bunch of smileys on how well she did at Spa or Le Mans or one of the other great tracks you'll experience with her in the futute. |
You are a good man Matteo, much better than me I would want blood after that and you know he shouldn't expect much more than a stock rebuild for his part in this it takes the same time to put a piston in a cylinder whether it is a 100 dollar piston or a 1000 dollar piston but his attitude in the letter is probably what you say not malice like MM but rather incompetence like laurel and hardy. Still the community should take note of this because it is becoming more and more common now days. I truly hope that the following chapters are full of positive and exciting news.
|
Matteo,
Your attitude is healthy and commendable, time to move on, lesson learned. Life has so much more to offer us in the future, no sense being consumed with would'a, could'a, should'a. That being said, thank you for sharing your experience as a learning episode and a warning. Good Karma going forward, you have earned it. Regards, Bob |
Quote:
+1 |
Very sorry to hear of your expensive motor issues.
For a motor builder to substitute a cracked and welded repaired case without disclosure is crappy. Thanks for being honest and sharing all the the good and the bad. fwiw my 911 project loses have been confined to $10k in crappy body kits, all returned, removed or repaired. I'm a month away from getting through a mind numbing 7 month AIR RSR body kit build. Don't go there. :( Now plug in the new motor and start enjoying your 911! :) |
Ohhh Matteo -
This has been quite a journey. It sounds like you managed to have a few glimpses of greatness w/the car on track, but ohhh man. . . lots of heartbreak too. Persistence will pay off. I hope the new motor eventually erases the bad experiences of the previous one and that you get to enjoy your creation as you dreamed you would . . . soon. I'm sure my wife could commiserate with yours about the joy and pain our cars inflict on their husbands (mine on a much smaller scale!). Here's wishing you a summer of trouble free driving in your 911. Tom |
Hi Matteo, sorry to hear about the motor. I think I would've lost my mind. My IROC project was a learning experience as well, fortunately my motor/tranny turned out well. I thought I had it all figured out since I had been through a restoration/rebuild before. Well, I'll probably never go through it again but I have lots of hard won advice for future project owners. If anyone needs advice, you can probably PM me but a phone call would be better since typing it out would take forever. Pick your shop carefully, in the end, I eventually wound up at the right one- Auto Associates and will NEVER go anywhere else ever again. Timmins doesn't work on real RSR's, 904's, etc. and there's a reason for that. When doing a project RIGHT, it's gonna cost you, there are no shortcuts, otherwise you wind up with something less than the sum of it's parts. I really feel for you Matteo, I had a similar exchange with someone involved my project and it also didn't turn out well. So I had to redo some things and pay for things twice but the car is correct now. People who live in New England, if you're looking for a shop to do your project right, contact me and I'll spend an hour telling you why you should go to AA.
|
Matteo,
Thank you for sharing this unfortunate turn of events with us. I often wonder why people choose to do business this way. Your story is well documented that was followed and admired by many on this board. So this unfortunate turn of events will be burned in the minds of many who may or may not to do business with this engine builder. Here's wishing you the best and that your car is finally the "dream" that we all imagined! |
You mentioned not paying attention to the warning lights...
I re-lit my P-car fire after a 10 year sabbatical a year ago, so I didn't know who was who. I'd been to Timmins website before - the impression I got was of a cool, somewhat eccentric amateur who was seriously into putting bigger motors and brakes on older 911's and selling what he'd learned via the net. I then read about your build and that the motor was being built by a professor, professional motor builder, 3.6l-genius, etc. To say I was surprised when I put 2 and 2 together and learned that the professor was the same guy as the enthusiastic amateur is an understatement. They say not to judge a book by its cover but they also say that first impressions do matter. Building a motor requires meticulous attention to detail and a high degree of perfection - sort of like building a website. After reading your story, it seems as though Timmins puts the same amount of professionalism into his work as into presenting himself to the world outside. |
What a nightmare. I can identify several problems with this build, but here are two major ones:
1. A mechanic who does not to disclose to their client that they are using a welded-up case for a 40K motor build is negligent. 2. Motec should only be installed and tuned by a trained and authorized Motec dealer. Anything else is asking for trouble. Good luck with your second motor, Matteo, you deserve a trouble free one. |
I'm very sorry to hear all this.
Best wishes for a better future with this car! |
I am with the majority opinion, namely, use of a repaired part, particularly an engine case in a project as high end as this one is unacceptable.
I would have expected, at a minimum, that you had written confirmation that the case was repaired prior to the work beginning. He is willing to make it up by giving you $2k for the case, but this is too late, although I do think it would be tough to prove that the rebuilt case was the source of your problems. Very, very disappointing to all, I had been lurking on this thread seeing a guy who was doing everything first class and very right, then to find out that some dumb*ss poor judgement is causing all this grief erodes what tiny bit of faith I have in human kind a little more..... Matteo, best of luck, you are clearly taking the higher road.....a rare example. Good luck. Dennis |
Amazing (awful) story Matteo. You have amazing patience. Best of luck to you going forward.
|
Matteo-
Are the specs of the new engine similar to the original? If different could you give a run down of what has gone into this new engine? |
hello,
some more is similar (except the type of car, the basis motor and some other details)... i have had also silicon inside the case, but mine was not white - it was dark red. this silicon stuff from "Würth" will be used for big gaps but definite not for the case... the oil will transport the loose parts of the silicon very good to the small oil passages and holes :rolleyes: this stuff costs me two camshafts, some rocker arms, one bearing and some more hours of work :mad: look forward, things are coming better ;) tom http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1236020450.jpg |
Quote:
993 camshaft Carrillo rods 102 mm 993 Clubsport Pistons 102mm x 107mm slip fit cylinders 9M intake valves 9M exhaust valves 9M retainers/springs 9M Billet heads 9M Intake manifolds Basically what's been kept is the rods and the camshafts. The heads and intake systems are not been used. The reason for not using the heads has nothing to do with any damage (they were actually untouched) but with the current engine builder and his approach. As per the intake the stacks were tapered to 45mm (heads were ported to 45mm) and the new heads have a smaller diameter, so they were not compatible. As stated above I want the current engine builder to be 100% accountable and that meant following their suggestions. Fingers crossed this time... |
Quote:
|
Wow. This completely stinks. Timmins should step up but clearly this will not happen.
White silicone everywhere, a rookie mistake. Someone was not truthful here, not cool. I would not be able to contain myself. Matteo you are a better man than I. |
Using a welded up case without telling the customer up front is very dishonest in my book.
Anyhow Bob and 9m have great reputations in the UK so you are now in good hands |
Matteo, I too share in the dismay expressed above and I admire your demeanor in the handling of the issues with Timmins. I had my turbo engine blown twice by John Truman and he has a great reputation but here again he took on a project that was beyond his ability and I paid dearly for it, I had warnings but like you I was already knee deep into a build and I just wanted a completed product. I am sorry for anyone going through this.
|
Awful, awful chapter to this story! So sorry to hear it, Matteo.
Add mine to the wishes for a page turned with the new motor. Best, pete |
Quote:
You certainly have the patience of Job(e) and invariably will be guaranteed a place in heaven ;). Looking forward to seeing the 74 RSR and that 'long overdue' beer(s) later in the year. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...leys/sunny.gif Good luck mate. Martin |
I'd like to think that I have solid standards for behavior, and in my judgment Matteo, the fact that you were sold an engine for 40K (!!!!) that didn't come with complete documentation (cylinder out of round and taper specs, bearing clearances and out of round measurements, etc), is wrong.... but the lack of disclosure that the CASE was once junk is beyond belief. Astounding.
(And as a guy building something for FORTY thousand dollars...(more than many folk make in a year), I'd be crazy careful, and ANYthing that smelled funny wouldn't come CLOSE to that engine.) You, on the other hand, have taken an exceedingly noble stance, and my hat is off to you. They say we only leave here with our reputation, and yours is safe. Good luck down the road, your friends are lucky to be associated with you. |
Matteo - you have the patience of a saint. Best of luck!
|
this is amazing, totally over the top. Matteo has to be one of the coolest guys I've met via our community, he didn't deserve this.
|
Perhaps more can be salvaged here than rods and camshafts. There is material here for a book. Most of the writing is done already, and the pics are all here too. The story line is compelling. Sales could offset some of the cost of a new motor - or more. A little editing here and there, and...voila! The Gold Plated Porsche done right.
|
Quote:
j/k:D Seriously though, best of luck on the new motor and pics of the beast if possible as it goes back together! Tom |
Quote:
|
I'm really sorry you had to go through this, Matteo -- but this last chapter reveals a lot about you. It's never easy to completely sort out culpability in this sort of thing, but you've made it very easy to see that you're a class act.
Like everyone else here, I hope the next version of the car is at least as awesome as the previous one should have been. |
Glad to see you and your car are back on track Matteo, you certainly have some patience.
Bad things do happen to engines from time to time, especially when they're tracked, but I have to say, starting with a good case would seem fundamental to a good build. Look forward to seeing you on the track again with the IB'ers. |
Quote:
I'd be interested in seeing a piston and associated rings to try to find out if they might have attributed to the damage, or if it was something else that caused the irregular wear, since I didn't supply the pistons or rings to CMW, just the cylinders. |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:00 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2025 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website