3.6 swaps are they REALLY all that and then some??

[rexav8r]

ok, what stirred all this up Eric ? what gives ??


Sounds like a 3.6 is a good way to go, but a bit much for a guy like McKenna...

[Larry_Ratcliff]

If you are ever in N. California I will take you for a ride. a 3.6 in an early car is a rocket. I have my 74 RS 3.6 but now I am about to do a 3.6 914 with 916 flares...

[ted]

Eric I had a 3.2 with close ratio gear in my 69 RS look.
Then I drove an SC with a 3.6.
What I first noticed was the torque of the 3.6, accelerating much quicker from 3k to 6k.
It was obvious the 3.6 has much more midrange torque.

So I replaced my 3.2 with a 3.6.
On a tight track with many 2nd and 3rd gear turns there is a noticeable 3.6 advantage over smaller displacement engines.
In 2nd I pull my buddies 3.4 a car length on short straights.
But on a fast 4th and 5th gear momentum track like our Big Willow these smaller engines with near as much HP can keep up.

Don't just compare peak RWHP get the dyno graphs and compare torque through the power band too.

I'd recommend the 3.2 to 3.6 upgrade.

[Erik Mckenna]

Thanks for th input Ted.. I simply have a 3.0.. right now with 248,000 miles on it without a rebuild.. so even a simple 3.2 would be a major upgrade.. but this 3.6 is really sounding good.. i am really just trying to see if it's worth the money.. thanks for the info..
-EM

[mjshira]

Erik

I had a 3.2 swap before my 3.6 swap. The difference is amazing and the money is about the same. Just go for a 3.6 you can get an early one for about 6500 and start with that. But plan on spending 20k over a couple years as other improvements follow.

[Scooter]

Originally posted by mjshira
The difference is amazing and the money is about the same.

I haven't done a swap, but everything I have read goes against this statement. I just don't see how a 3.2 swap costs the same as a 3.6. Please give more detail.

[mjshira]

I thought I said, about the same. In my view, the costs are about the same (about equals a few thousand bucks difference).

[island911]

Originally posted by Erik Mckenna
.... i am really just trying to see if it's worth the money.. thanks for the info..
-EM

It's worth the money if you have lots of money. (or want people to think so.)

And if a 3.6 is "worth the money" then a turbo is too.

fwiw, I had my 3.o rebuilt (headstuds) and I'm back to a very solid motor with plenty of fun factor. I considered a 3.6, but when you graft in a used 3.6, what do you have? More torque? -absolutly. A well used engine? - likely. Hassle and/or expense of making it work -yep, that too. Worth the money? -for me; no.

[Scooter]

Thanks for the clarification James.

[ted]

Eric just another perspective.

You could do the 3.2 now and save some of the 3.6 conversion costs.
But in about 2 years you are going to be looking for more, driving your 3.2 to the limit and getting pulled by lesser drivers with 3.6s.

That's kinda where I was with my 3.2.
At this future point you will have to consider building your 3.2 to a 3.4 with P/C, maybe heads and ITBs or install a turbo kit. Or finally doing the 3.6.

With those choices it was cheaper for me to just plug in the 3.6.

Also now the 3.6 is a great platform should I want to build it into a 3.8, big heads and ITBs. But I doubt I'll ever do that, besides then it would be less streetable.

For the money big power through a water cooled 996 turbo engine might be fun too.

I went through Patrick and friends for the 3.6 conversion, maybe the Timmons set up would simplify your conversion.
I think a 3.6 would fit your style.

Edit, My thoughts are based only on track experiences.
If you are a street only guy then maybe a 3.0 will do it for ya.

[mjshira]

Originally posted by Scooter
Thanks for the clarification James.

ahh you're welcome?

All I am trying to share with people is that, in my view, the costs are similar in many respects. You have to modify your car to fit both in, you have to factor in clutch and flywheel issues. You have to make the fuel systems work, you have to pay labor (if you don't do it yourself), etc.

So they are both involved upgrades. In my view, a used 3.6 is a great buy.

Take Jack for example. His engine had 40k on it when he got it (I think) and look how much use he has gotten out of it. And he has abused the ***** out of it.

There are a lot of people who make the incorrect assumption that a Porsche flat six is like other engines when it comes to miles on the clock. In my view, it is not. Well maintained, I have heard engines going 300k. And that includes track days, etc. Look at Eriks engine for an example.

So if you are looking at doing a 3.2, I would suggest that you could look at a 3.6 also.

[Scooter]

Originally posted by mjshira
ahh you're welcome?

I was sincere, not sarcastic in my response. You indicated that you considered "about the same" to be a few thousand dollars difference, which helped. Thanks again for even more clarification in your last post.

[mjshira]

ok Scott, just wanted to make sure you knew I was trying to help as much as I could.

[rdane]

Hey Eric! Little late to your party but I thought I could add a detail or two.

If you are going to track your car all the upgrades you'll want for a 3.6 will work just fine for a 3.0 as well. Bigger brakes and better oil cooling are gonna be mandatory anyway.

Having BTDT as a 3.0 the only thing I wouldn't do again is go bigger than Carrera brakes. Too much weight for street or hill climbs and only needed for the really hard track days. Not like you have to stay out and cook your brakes Gotta have a oil cooler no matter what engine you have in the car. Suspension work will make the car faster as well.

No one that has ever ridden in a well done 3.6 doubts the "value". But any well done 3.2/3.4/ 3.5 will hold there own against a stock 3.6 in the same weight car. Best value for the buck though is going to be a 3.6. Which is why many have done the 3.2 first and then gone on and added the 3.6 as the third engine.

The details of "bigger value" are better gas milage, factory twin plug and anti knock in the 3.6. My 3.4 was more fun to drive but just didn't have the modern technology. Pump gas at almost 4 bucks a gallon now makes the 3.6 an even easier choice.

Takes all of 2 minutes of driving to sort out the differenece between a run of the mill, heavy weight, mid year turbo and a lwt 3.6 trans plant. LWT with 3.6 vs turbo and a well prepared turbo will be really fun...if you added big brakes and even bigger tires. It is all about balance. Yellowbird is a good example.

Finally, the best value before you change the 3.0l (or the 3.2 or rebuld) out is to rebuild your tranny with a set of short gears and all the reinforcements. That will make you think you added 50HP for a lot less money...and down the road it will work just fine with your eventual 3.6 transplant.

The original offer is still open. Fly into Seattle for the weekend, we'll put you up and you can drive mine

[mb911]

well erik if you change your mind you come up to wisconsin and ride in a 3.0 based 3.2 ss'd engine that I build the whole turbo system. It is in the same 300 hp range as the 3.6's and mine is very detuned right now. Definatly not NA throttle resopnse like but very close with incredible TQ... Mine was done for under 8k including all the rebuild parts and turbo coponents including the EFI. so the poormans 3.6 I guess ..

[Mike the mechanic]

The car on youtube is my car in different stages. All the videos of the car driving are with my twin turbo 3.2, when I removed the mufflers and made two dump tubes out the back. They aren't really good videos of the car's power, but just wanted to illustrate the sound of the car to a friend and youtube is easier than emailing the vids.
The car is an 86 Carrera, but I am running a shortened g50. It was making close to 700bhp on pump fuel.
I plan on selling this car, and I know how hard it can be to sell a 700hp car, so I sold the turbo motor, and was looking for a stock 3.2 to put back in, but then came across a nice varioram, so I picked it up and popped it in. Surely, the car is more driveable now, since the clutch doesnt have to be an on-off setup, the stock cams let it idle much smoother, and it's not deafeningly loud now, and oh yeah, it has much better fuel economy than 8 miles per gallon now!

So, the car is much slower, with less than half the hp and torque, but it will be easier to sell now. Relatively speaking, i thought there was something wrong with the motor once I installed and test drove it, even my winter car is faster. But then, i drove a stock 3.2, and a 993 and realized that my car is not slow. Its an awesome upgrade over stock.

[herman maire]

Mike,
what was the throttle response like with the 3.2TT ?? also what was it like on the track??

Did you sell your car yet?

Thanks

[Joe Bob]

It's Time...83 cab, with 3.6 and early back date 4 sale

Tooting my own horn.....mine is for sale. Gonna do something different.

[Mike the mechanic]

Hi Herman, I did not sell the car yet. The throttle response was very good above 3000rpm. In that video of me rolling in 2nd, that smoke is tire smoke, at maybe 3/4 throttle. It was insane! I never tracked it on a circuit, just 1/4 mile. I might track it this summer until i do sell it.

[Noel]

Eric,

Jay (htron) has a 1981 with a non-vario 3.6L. In fact, I'm coming into Ohio this weekend to drive it at Mid-Ohio with the POtomac region. He lives in Springfield and I'm sure will give you a ride or even let you drive it.

I'll e-mail him this thread.