Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils - Page 21

cnavarro · 11-08-2007, 02:29 PM

Brad Penn is what the original Kendall was, say in the 70s and 80s and sometime into the 90s until Kendall was sold to Conoco-Phillips.

New Kendall is nothing special, just a repackaged conoco-phillips product.

I would not use any 10w40 unless it was a motorcycle product, as 10w40's are all notoriously low on Zn and P. If 20w50 is too thick (Brad Penn claims good to 20F cold starts), then use the Swepco 15w40 (or one of the other m/c oils I have previously mentioned).

Por_sha911 · Por_sha911's Garage

Charles, thanks for your help and explanations through all these posts. The new Kendall is "nothing special". Is that because the SL oil is no better than SM or because the formulation breaks down like the GTX? If so, then I need to keep hunting for RP 20/50 (not 15/40)?

oliver88 · 11-08-2007, 02:48 PM

Charles,

Redline 10w40 is loaded with ZDDP and has given me my best, most consistent UOA's. Just an FYI...it has a monster film strength as well,most likely better than most 20w50's...

scottb · 04:25 PM

I'm very late to the party here, and have not read all 400+ posts in this thread, so if this question has been asked and/or answered, please forgive me.

With that said, has anyone evaluated ZDDPlus? It claims to add the necessary zinc and phosphate needed in older cars. Here's a link:

http://www.zddplus.com/

I'd be interested in hearing comments on whether this stuff is worth anything, or is just snake oil.

Scott

cnavarro · 11-08-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oliver88

Charles,

Redline 10w40 is loaded with ZDDP and has given me my best, most consistent UOA's. Just an FYI...it has a monster film strength as well,most likely better than most 20w50's...

The Redline 10w40 would be one of those fine exceptions to my dislike of 10w40 oils. When you get into what I would consider "boutique" synthetics, like Motul, Redline, etc, you do get really good oils. There are lots of other oils from Fuchs and other oe suppliers of "Porsche approved" oils as well with robust products (albeit, maybe not on the "list"). It's just too hard to test them all AND have long term usage with each oil to back up it's long term performance.

cnavarro · 11-08-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottb

I'm very late to the party here, and have not read all 400+ posts in this thread, so if this question has been asked and/or answered, please forgive me.

With that said, has anyone evaluated ZDDPlus? It claims to add the necessary zinc and phosphate needed in older cars. Here's a link:

http://www.zddplus.com/

I'd be interested in hearing comments on whether this stuff is worth anything, or is just snake oil.

Scott

It's not snake oil and will raise the Zn and P, but care would have to be taken to make sure you don't add too much - it is much more concentrated than EOS. Secondly, I would really like to know if Zddplus also has added detergents - when you raise Zn and P, you also have to raise the detergents, which was something I didn't really know or understand until I read it in an SAE journal. That's why the EOS had about equal Zn and P to detergency.

linklaw · 11-08-2007, 05:43 PM

Am I correct to assume that oils with an SL rating will still have adequate levels of ZDDP? After following this thread for a couple days, I found myself at Autozone today and compared the ratings of the oils they had on the rack. While the Castrol, Pennzoil, Quaker State and Valvoline all had a SM rating label on the container, there were several 20W50 oils that were still rated SL. The AutoZone brand and Havoline come to mind. These oils were also significantly cheaper than the other brands. Since none of the oils list ZDDP content, does anyone know whether all SL rated oils have enough ZDDP? Does anyone think there would be a problem using these cheaper oils if they have the correct ZDDP content, assuming a 3,000 mile oil change interval?

cnavarro · 05:55 PM

No, just because it says API SL, it does not mean that necessarily it is a good choice. Many of the "SL" rated oils had low levels on Zn and P already - it was in the SAE journal about the development of the SL (as well as mirrored in the SM) that they did not see the need to test for the performance of these newer oils against older engines. Also most of the samples I sent out for testing were done quite some time ago, you can see at least a few "SL" rated oils with SM levels of Zn and P already.

http://www.lnengineering.com/oiltable.htm

Granted I haven't spent any more money conducting VOA's (and most are out of date) as I figured it would be best spent building my own spintron to simulate cam wear in a controlled enviroment with various different lubricants and/or additives, then to try to conduct long term testing as I have had certain engine builders and racers do with me as they have with the Brad Penn - similar to the experiences had with Swepco 306 15w40.

For the record, the Brad Penn is an API SJ/CF and the Swepco 306 15w40 is an API SL/CI-4.

RWebb · RWebb's Garage

It may pay to check stores to see what they really have. The local sprawl-mart here has M-1 15W-50 (gray cap) SL rated, and if I recall the list correctly, that tested out just fine.

cnavarro · 11-09-2007, 06:42 AM

Yeah, the old M1 15w50 SL rated was just fine. Around me I can still find 5+ year old bottles of the tri-synthetic good old stuff. Your mileage may very in finding older formulations though.

Brent Lineker · Brent Lineker's Garage

I have just found some old stock Chevron Supreme 20W-50 that has the SJ rating.I would think that would test out just fine.Any comments Charles N.

delaneyd · delaneyd's Garage

Question for Cnavarro---I have an 83SC with 105K miles , all original and does not leak--at all!!!. I have been using GTX 20W50 for years , but since I don't drive it much ( less than 2500 miles/yr ) I only change the oil every 12-18 months. Being in Alabama I think 20W50 would be my best choice , but what would you use??? Seems like my best choice is BP or Swepco 306 , but tell me which between the two and what weight.

wesayso · 11-09-2007, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delaneyd

Question for Cnavarro---I have an 83SC with 105K miles , all original and does not leak--at all!!!. I have been using GTX 20W50 for years , but since I don't drive it much ( less than 2500 miles/yr ) I only change the oil every 12-18 months. Being in Alabama I think 20W50 would be my best choice , but what would you use??? Seems like my best choice is BP or Swepco 306 , but tell me which between the two and what weight.

That answer is all over this thread, isn't it?

BP if you want 20W50 and Swepco for the 15W40 would be my guess by reading this thread.

scottb · 11-09-2007, 11:53 AM

Just to add a little something to the mix here, I just received the following e-mail from Shell in response to an inquiry about ZDDP and the proper oil for an 84 Carrera:

The zinc and phosphorous levels were recently reduced (from the API SL levels) as there has been concerns that the oil that makes its way in to the combustion zone of your engine, carrying these anti-wear metals, were burning and poisoning the catalyst in the catalytic converters. If you are seeking higher zinc and phosphorous contents you may have to look to racing oil. We have a product that is called Pennzoil Racing Motor Oil and is available in SAE 50, 60 and 25W-50. It has approximately 1800-2000 ppm of zinc additive for extra wear protection. Other engine oils with comparable anti wear protection would include Shell Rotella T 15W-40 and Pennzoil Long Life 15W-40. Should you desire to speak with a technical representative to discuss this issue in more detail please call Pennzoil-Quaker State Technical Information at 1-800-458-4998.

Sincerely

Product Technical Service

delaneyd · delaneyd's Garage

Yes the answer is all over the thread , BUT no one has mentioned the low mileage long drain intervals I am asking about. So , does that factor in or not ? Sorry for the confusion.

KNS · 11-10-2007, 04:13 AM

A couple of people have mentioned finding and using older oil that may have been sitting on the store shelf for a few years. Not long ago I had asked Castrol about using some older oil that I had sitting on my own shelf for a few years and if it was okay(?). That had recommended not using any oil after about two years of storage.
Thoughts....?

donstevens · donstevens's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by delaneyd

Yes the answer is all over the thread , BUT no one has mentioned the low mileage long drain intervals I am asking about. So , does that factor in or not ? Sorry for the confusion.

IMHO any of this oils are OK for you short mileage, long calender period drain interval. Go with the semi synthetic (for winter starts) product with the highest TBN (to fight the longtrem effects of moisture). That's probably the BP 20W50.

Don

cnavarro · 11-10-2007, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottb

Just to add a little something to the mix here, I just received the following e-mail from Shell in response to an inquiry about ZDDP and the proper oil for an 84 Carrera:

The zinc and phosphorous levels were recently reduced (from the API SL levels) as there has been concerns that the oil that makes its way in to the combustion zone of your engine, carrying these anti-wear metals, were burning and poisoning the catalyst in the catalytic converters. If you are seeking higher zinc and phosphorous contents you may have to look to racing oil. We have a product that is called Pennzoil Racing Motor Oil and is available in SAE 50, 60 and 25W-50. It has approximately 1800-2000 ppm of zinc additive for extra wear protection. Other engine oils with comparable anti wear protection would include Shell Rotella T 15W-40 and Pennzoil Long Life 15W-40. Should you desire to speak with a technical representative to discuss this issue in more detail please call Pennzoil-Quaker State Technical Information at 1-800-458-4998.

Sincerely

Product Technical Service

The Pennzoil Racing oils are a favorite of local marine guys here, but they change the oil literally, after every pass/ I bought a case of it to try in my squareback and the engine ran so poorly, I drained it out. I have seen the inside of race engines running the stuff and they are brown and nasty. The oil smells burn coming out of the bottle too - at least my case.

Jim Garfield · 11-10-2007, 06:23 AM

Charles, I was going to thank you in person at RRIII for all of the great information that you've posted here. I saw your stand at the literature show, but you were talking to someone and somehow I got distracted and never made it back to say hi.

I've used up my stash of Mobil 1 15-50 SL, and just got a call yesterday from the new RI BP disrtibutor who should have some in next week. I wouldn't have known about the BP oil if not for you - so thanks for your research and input here.

RWebb · RWebb's Garage

re 2 years - some shelf life makes sense -- oil co.s have told me 5 yrs for grease, so I am surprised that it is only 2 for oil (which does not have clay in it to come 'loose' from the oil portion like a grease does).

But, how do you know how old the oil is anyway? Did your manf. stamp a shelf date on it? If so, is it coded or can you read it?

I'd expect oil to turn over fairly quickly in any event.