Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[mca]

What about Schaeffer motor oils?

http://www.schaefferoil.com/motor_oils.html

When I first got my SC and had it serviced, a local Porsche race team shop used Schaeffer - they swear by it. I can't remember exactly what blend it was but I remember it being blue/green in color. My records at home will have the exact weight.

Regardless, the oil seemed to find its way out of my engine rather easily. Never used it again.

[HarryD]

Another data point. A co-worker and I were discussing this thread. He is rebuildings an older ('80's) V-8 from his Chevy Truck. He showed me the lifters which are pitted and he told me the cam lobes did not look much better. He has been changings his oil regularly and does not abuse his vehicle. It is a large issue.

Originally Posted by Dennis Kalma

Ok, I am curious. We are not the only car owners with this sort of problem...my Datsun 240Z had similar lifter arrangements as the 911, plus pretty well every muscle car, sports car and toy car that is older than 10 years will have the same issue.

What I am wrestling with is:

1. Is it really a problem? How good is the documented proof that our engines will wear excessively?

2. Are the solutions raised here the best ones that align to practices in marques with similar problems?

3. Why are the oil manufacturers (who are always looking to make a buck), not offering a solution for the older vehicle? Who do I have to yell at?

Dennis

[alniki]

Charles, I found a 15W50 by Maxoil made in Belgium. Could you please comment on if this would be good for our air-cooled engine?
How does VW 500.00 compare with VW505.01? Thanks!

on the label:

API CF-4/SH
CCMC G4/PD2
ACEA A3/B3
VW 500.00
Mercedes zugelassen
Peugeot TU-3
GM 6049-M
Volvo zugelassen
Porsche zugelassen

[911-32]

In Europe we can get a Castrol Edge Turbo Diesel oil at a reasonable price which is 5W-40 VW 505.01. The fact sheet doesn't mean much to me but it is ACEA A3/B3/B4 and API SL/CF.

If the consensus is that the VW 505.01 std is good stuff then is that enough?

Another 505.01 we can get is Fuchs Titan Supersyn Plus 5W-40 - its A3/B3/B4 and SJ/CF.

We can also get all Motul oils. The 300V Competition 15W-50 that seems to be used by a bunch of 24hr race teams looks promising but the only useful property I can find on the fact sheet is HTHS at 150 degrees C of 5.33mPa.s. I have seen a 600hp 930 break its fan belt and come in super hot to the point the oil coolers melted but on tear down the engine showed no wear using this Motul oil. Nice anecdote I know, I wonder if its another possible oil?

Thanks again

[GeorgeM]

Anybody seen this from the Rennlist 928 Forum?

I hadn' seen it anywhere here, so pardon if it's a repeat.

=========================================

It shouldn't be any surprise by now, that Mobil "re introduced" their top shelf multi grade oil 15W 50.

I wasn't real sure why they did this so I looked it up and found...

Why are you reintroducing Mobil 1 15W-50? Have there been any changes to the formulation, or is it identical to the previous product?
Mobil 1 15W-50 is being reintroduced based on popular demand. Mobil 1 15W-50 provides higher viscosity, designed to provide extra protection for performance vehicles and vehicles that operate in severe service, such as towing, hauling and racing. Additionally, Mobil 1 15W-50 contains higher levels of anti-wear (ZDDP or Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) that may be required for certain racing applications and camshaft designs. This is a new Mobil 1 15W-50 formulation and is not the same as the product that was marketed a few years ago.

What I am surprised about, is that they say "... not the same as the product that was marketed a few years ago. " Whoa, I have been buying this stuff up until a month ago. Do they just make that much that it takes 3 years to deplete their inventory?

Also, (and NOT complaining here) though they have re-introduced it, the cost is less!!! It's supposedly better and now meets four classifications rather than three.

So does anyone have any comments about the change and the lower price for better schtuff? You can buy this oil at Costco now for around $29.00 a case.

[Gunter]

Some replies from Shell and Castrol:

Shell.ca was very open and forthcoming.
SHELL REPLY:

As I explained to you over the phone Phosphorus and Zinc content is not a criteria to be used in selecting the right oil for an engine. Rotella T 15W-40 meets API CJ-4, and supersedes CI-4 and previous specs. Maximum allowable Phosphorus content for API CJ-4 specified oils is 1200ppm. Phosphorus (S) and Zinc (Zn) comes from ZDDP additives used in the oil.

Although, S and Zn content of Rotella T 15W-40 was slightly lowered to meet CJ-4 specification, the performance of the oil has not been compromised compared to previous Rotella T with CI-4 spec. In fact, new Rotella T 15W-40 shows better wear resistance, deposit control and reduced emissions. This was achieved by the improvements in additive technologies and Shell's advanced oil formulation techniques.

However, if a customer is still insisting on a product with CI-4 spec then our Rimula Premium 15W-40 can be offered.

Technical Representative Lubes & Fuels
Shell Canada Products

CASTROL REPLY:

Unfortunately Castrol's oils formulations are proprietary information and are not released to the general public.
However, we can tell you that the ZDDP levels have been reduced.
We DO NOT recommend any of our GTX Dino oils for flat-tappet engines; we recommend Syntec for older cars.

Castrol Consumer Relations.

I called Castrol.ca to confirm this.
They do not recommend any of their Dino oils (Including 20W50 and 15W40 Diesel) for our air-cooled engines (Or any engine with flat tappets)
So, forget about 20W50 GTX for track days.

For me, Castrol is out; Shell is in.
I like Diesel oil and plan to use either Rotella-T 15W40 with GM-EOS or Rimula Premium 15W40 for the 911.
(The reason why I like Diesel oil is experience: Numerous high-mileage vehicles like my present old Volvo 240 with 300.000 km, original engine on 15W40 Diesel oil without EOS)

Any thoughts?

[Steve@Rennsport]

Wham:

Mobil is playing a little game here and hoping that people have not done their due diligence on this subject,....

If an oil is formulated to meet the API-SM specification, thats the indicator of reduced (insufficient) ZDDP in the oil. They have simply used some other EP additives such as Boron for the SL rating.

IMHO,...the jury is still out on the long-term effectiveness of those other EP additives for these engines and I'd much prefer to use a product that contains 1200ppm of Zn & P since we know how well that worked. Of course, this is a simplification of the issue as there is a lot more about oils that play a role in choosing what to use.


Just a note about diesel oils; please remember that while their EP chemistries are pretty good, these engines do not turn many RPM (under 3000) and such oils do not contain as much of the anti-foam additives that racing/performance oils do.

[movin]

Just a note about diesel oils; please remember that while their EP chemistries are pretty good, these engines do not turn many RPM (under 3000) and such oils do not contain as much of the anti-foam additives that racing/performance oils do.[/QUOTE]

I'm with you on this one and wondered why nobody talked about it all these years. I would like to know if the HDEO's have the anti-foam additives we do need for our engines. I suspect after the diesel oils were merged with heavy duty oils to become HDEO's they must have put some anti-foam additives in because the oil is now for both gas or diesel engines. Just my hunch.

[JWLindsey]

No tech to add, but I found a good Brad Penn distributor for the NorCal guys. He is Bill Creech at 916-303-4038. He said he would do discount pricing for the Pelican folk and also was interested to hear that the low ZDDP phenom is hitting the air/oil cooled crowd now as well. I am going to drain and switch from the old skool GTX 20W50 in the Carrera next weekend, so will report back then with any observations. Scary stuff!

-JWL

[Eagledriver]

I talked to an Amzoil distributor at Oshosh this summer and he gave me some insite into this topic. He says the SM standards do require lower ZDDP but only in SOME viscosities. The Mobile website has a question and answer section that says the Mobile 1 in 15-50 has 1200ppm of phosphorous. The lower viscosity such as 10-30 have 800ppm of P.

This agrees with what I was told by the Amzoil guy.

I'm using the M1 15w-50 for now while I keep researching this topic.

-Andy

[oliver88]

Eagledriver,

Just because an oil has an "SM" rating does not necessarily mean that it has lowered zinc/phosphorus content...API ratings have nothing to do with those additive levels...It is ISLAC that mandates the levels. There are many SM oils that have 1000-1200 ppm of zinc and phos.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by oliver88

Eagledriver,

Just because an oil has an "SM" rating does not necessarily mean that it has lowered zinc/phosphorus content...API ratings have nothing to do with those additive levels...It is ISLAC that mandates the levels. There are many SM oils that have 1000-1200 ppm of zinc and phos.

Eagledriver,

That could very well be but without definitve data, I would be leery of trusting such a generic claim.

The way i see it, why would a maufacturer use a different additive package for a particular line of oil when the only thing changing (to the customer's eyes) is the viscocity rating. ZDDP is (relatively) expensive, so, who whould know if it is missing since many of the grade for that particular line are required to be lower anyway?

Just cynical 'ol me....

[movin]

I thought somebody already did a VOA on the so called new Mobil1 15W-50 and it tested well below the claim of 1200ppm. Was it Charles' site? If you simply must use a Mobil1 product go with the Mobil1 20w-50 motorcyle oil and rest assured.

[GeorgeM]

Thanks Steve. I should have figured.

We have three universal observations here in the JPRC-Baghdad. Number 3 applies here:

3. Nothing is what it seems.

(In case you're wondering what numbers 1 and 2 are... (1) Nothing is easy, (2) Successes are few)

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by GeorgeM

Thanks Steve. I should have figured.

We have three universal observations here in the JPRC-Baghdad. Number 3 applies here:

3. Nothing is what it seems.

(In case you're wondering what numbers 1 and 2 are... (1) Nothing is easy, (2) Successes are few)

LOL,..Those are really pearls of wisdom and certainly apply to this subject in particular,...

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by movin

I thought somebody already did a VOA on the so called new Mobil1 15W-50 and it tested well below the claim of 1200ppm. Was it Charles' site? If you simply must use a Mobil1 product go with the Mobil1 20w-50 motorcyle oil and rest assured.

Charles DID test the newest iteration of 15w-50 M1 and I recollect it to be below 1100ppm for P and under 1000ppm for Zn. Might be OK and then, perhaps not.

Its probably pertinent to mention that individuals can experiment with various oils somewhat willy-nilly compared to a Porsche repair or racing enterprise where customers rely on the owners/operators for 24kt advice that is offered with their long-term best interests at stake. For that and other reasons, we cannot take chances or experiment with new or unproven products on a customer's dime based on experience and will use products that have known effects and consequences.

If a car manufacturer and an oil company tell someone that its OK to use certain products that our experience indicates otherwise, we are beholden to tell our clientel what we think even if it runs counter to the above advice. To me, a conflict of interest may apply when such companies profit from such information.

JMHO, though so YMMV.

[LeeH]

Phoenix Pelicans... Brad Penn 20W50 racing oil is available at Sidewalk Surfer in Scottsdale.
http://sidewalksurfer.com
Yep... it's a skateboard shop. The owner had trouble finding it and became a distributor.

[htron435]

I'm now stocking Brad Penn 20W50 for those of you in the Springfield/Dayton area.

[JBO]

I've asked this before with no answer - I was in Wal Mart again this weekwnd, and they carry a Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40 that the package states is SL (not SM). Looking at the packages, including the reintroduced formula 15-50, they were all SM, SL except for the 10-40 (and the 5-40 Mobil 1 diesel truck oil, which was also SL). So I ask again, is this Mobil 1 SL 10-40 or the SL 5-40 acceptable? The 10-40 is $23 for a 5 qt jug. The 5-40 comes in 4 qt jugs for $21, so it is a little more expensive, but both are much cheaper than V-Twin at $8.25/qt.

[KNS]

Thanks Lee!