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Thanks to all the great information contained in this thread , I think I am pretty clear on what to use in my 911. But from a older water cooled engine standpoint for vehicles that specify useage of 10W40, how is the new Mobil 1 10W40 or the Mobil 1 5W40 turbo diesel oil? They are both
SL oils (not SM). I know the Swepco could be used in this case but I am asking because these
oils are widely available and some of us would rather run synthetic oils if possible. Due to the SL spec, would these oils require any additional additives or would they be acceptable as is?

Thanks,

Mike

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Old 12-12-2007, 07:10 AM
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For something that specifically calls for a 10w40, I don't see a problem using the M1 5w40 Truck and Diesel, as long as they leave it alone as it currently stands at an API SL/CI-4 rated oil. I would actually prefer that over the M1 high mileage 10w40 to be perfectly honest.
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:19 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #602 (permalink)
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so brad penn oil is the way to go at this point
what about a filter?
which is the best to use?
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1975 911s, 3.2l and 915 transmission front oil cooler RUF replica bumper ducktail and SC rear flares SW chip ssi's m&k 2 in 1 out sc front calipers PF 97 pads fuchs 16 x 7 and 8 225/ 245 toyo ra-1s 22/29 torsion bars 25mm Charlie Bars Neatrix bushings lowered and corner balanced DAS bolt in roll bar kirkey seat 5 point harnesses.
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:38 AM
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ok, instead of waiting for brad penn oil to call or write back I went to the main website http://www.amref.com/ got their phone number and gave them a call.
found a shop in suffolk county http://www.sterling-engine-parts.com/
they have 20w50 and they have a case in the store so I'll pick up that tomorrow while I am up there to get my injectors that are being flow tested and cleaned.
all I need now is pointers on the best filter
I have been using Mahle filters so far
are there other options?
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1975 911s, 3.2l and 915 transmission front oil cooler RUF replica bumper ducktail and SC rear flares SW chip ssi's m&k 2 in 1 out sc front calipers PF 97 pads fuchs 16 x 7 and 8 225/ 245 toyo ra-1s 22/29 torsion bars 25mm Charlie Bars Neatrix bushings lowered and corner balanced DAS bolt in roll bar kirkey seat 5 point harnesses.
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:00 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #604 (permalink)
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If you can get them, the Mobil 1 oil filters are my favorite, tied with the K&N Gold. I'm also guessing that those filters sold by Amsoil are of equal quality. In a pinch, I used Napa Gold or Wix filters (I have a Wix on my 911 right now).
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Old 12-12-2007, 11:16 AM
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thanks,
I will see what i can find tomorrow.
look forward to getting the oil changed and the injectors back in!
little by little making progress
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1975 911s, 3.2l and 915 transmission front oil cooler RUF replica bumper ducktail and SC rear flares SW chip ssi's m&k 2 in 1 out sc front calipers PF 97 pads fuchs 16 x 7 and 8 225/ 245 toyo ra-1s 22/29 torsion bars 25mm Charlie Bars Neatrix bushings lowered and corner balanced DAS bolt in roll bar kirkey seat 5 point harnesses.
http://www.hairydoggrrrage.com/
Old 12-12-2007, 05:57 PM
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Charles,
You do not mention the Mahle OC54 filter. Is there a relevant reason? Are the ones you named superior in quality, performance or price? Has Mahle degraded their product over recent years, or not kept up with the competition in some fashion? Thanks for all your time on the topic of oil and our air-cooled motors.
Old 12-13-2007, 11:25 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #607 (permalink)
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I actually thought about mentioning the Mahle and Mann filters - I wouldn't hesitate using either of the two german filters, but I'd say they are about equivalent to the Napa Gold or Wix in design and construction.
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:03 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #608 (permalink)
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Charles,

I have been following some of yours and Doug Hillary´s discussion on this topic on Rennlist. You seem to have somewhat different views on the subject. Both of you sound eminently knowledgeable, but that only adds to the confusion for us ignorants (me).

Care to comment on that reflection here on Pelican ?

Thanks!
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:07 PM
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Charles,

I have been following some of yours and Doug Hillary´s discussion on this topic on Rennlist. You seem to have somewhat different views on the subject. Both of you sound eminently knowledgeable, but that only adds to the confusion for us ignorants (me).

Care to comment on that reflection here on Pelican ?

Thanks!
Boy, Markus,........you asked a loaded question,....

I would only offer that everyone has an opinion and they are shaped by each individual specific experiences.
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:38 PM
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Thank you Steve.

I think it's best to say that Doug and I agree to disagree. I will say that an ACEA A3/B3 API SM or CJ-4 rated oil will *probably* be fine for your Boxster as Doug has stated. If I had a GT2, GT3, or Turbo, I sure as h*ll would not use an SM or CJ-4 oil though, especially M1 0w40. I would try my hardest to find another 'approved' oil.

Doug has a well-seasoned relationship with Mobil and its products, even if not employed by them, and many years of experience to rely on. Although I might not have a few decades of experience with lubricants, I do spend every evening with a cup of coffee and my sae journals and try to dig as deeply as I can into this problem to understand all aspects of it.

I just got in few dozen more papers that will take me probably months to read and annotate. I also do have a chemical engineer around (my wife), to bounce questions and discuss what I read (if I don't understand it).

I believe while Doug might have lots of practical experience he is falling back on, he is no where as versed on published research or as diligent in researching the topic as I have tried to be.

Believe it or not, everything is there in black and white - from why they have done what they are doing to what flaws there are with current formulations and what's coming next to help make things better. It just costs a lot of money to keep buying more and more documents, not to mention, time to internalize them all. Good thing I don't watch any TV and my wife doesn't mind me working oil oil stuff nearly every night. I am also trying to take notes and publish them, as I read these papers the second time around, sans commentary from myself. The facts can stand on their own, regardless of whether the proof should say that CJ-4 oils are superior or SM or ILSAC GF-4 oils are insufficient.

I really do wish all these publications were free to read on the Internet. It's one thing reading what someone says and reading it for yourself.
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Last edited by cnavarro; 12-13-2007 at 01:05 PM..
Old 12-13-2007, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cnavarro View Post
Thank you Steve. Doug has a well-seasoned relationship with Mobil, even if not employed by them, and many years of experience. Although I might not have a few decades of experience with lubricants, I do spend every evening with a cup of coffee and my sae journals. I just got in few dozen more that will take me probably months to read and annotate. I also do have a chemical engineer around (my wife), to bounce questions and discuss what I read (if I don't understand it). I believe while Doug might have lots of practical experience he is falling back on, he is no where as versed on published research and diligent in researching the topic. Believe it or not, everything is there in black and white - from why they have done what they are doing to what flaws there are with current formulations and what's coming next. It just costs a lot of money to keep buying more and more documents, not to mention time to internalize them all. Good thing I don't watch any TV and my wife doesn't mind me working oil oil stuff nearly every night.
You opened another can, Charles. So what is "coming next"???

Jim
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:57 PM
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Thanks, Charles.

Please excuse my being blunt, but it is a topic that is more 'foggy' to amateurs than most issues - almost religious. In the end we all have to form our own opinion and decide for our selves. It is wise then, to have listened to as many insightful people as possible. Even if that leaves one more confused, the confusion is at least on a slightly higher level.
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:16 PM
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... It is wise then, to have listened to as many insightful people as possible. Even if that leaves one more confused, the confusion is at least on a slightly higher level.
Livi must be another in the long line of great Swedish philosophers. Emanuel Swedenborg couldn't have said it better!
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:28 PM
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Thanks, Charles.

Please excuse my being blunt, but it is a topic that is more 'foggy' to amateurs than most issues - almost religious. In the end we all have to form our own opinion and decide for our selves. It is wise then, to have listened to as many insightful people as possible. Even if that leaves one more confused, the confusion is at least on a slightly higher level.
Don't feel bad, I've been trying to get a grasp on it for years, and it was only about a little less than two years ago that we made the connection to the lubricant and only most recently that I realized that it wasn't the Zn and P alone, but a host of other factors, like the dispersants, anti-oxidants, friction modifiers, and viscosity modifiers, on top of the base oils, that all affect the performance of an oil.

Zn and P levels are just the tip of the iceberg.... as evidence shows that the Brad Penn works great, but it only has 1200 ppm Zn and 1100 ppm P. Just in a paper I was reading this evening, just published November 1st of this year and presented in Chicago, I finally found, in print, what I suspected. That the lower levels of co-detergents Ca, Mg, and Na, provide significantly less wear than an oil with an equal TBN, but all Ca, which most modern oils employ as the major source of TBN in form of metallic detergents. It's little tidbits like this that you have to pour through countless research papers to find to answer the question of why they did that!

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/lifters.htm

The above link goes back to '04 and '05 when I was doing some R&D work with Aircooled Technology, trying to find a viable alternative to the sintered silicon nitride followers we were having made up ($$$), and hasn't been updated in years, but you can see the kind of wear we were experiencing. There is even mention that they were working with LN beginning in '06 to see if lubricants could be used to address the problem. And they did. That particular shop switched to Brad Penn and hasn't looked back!

Athough not linked to anywhere, all the complete photos from each stage of lifter testing from our complete matrix are here:

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/galleries/Lifter%20Testing/

EDIT: that's not the complete gamut of lifters we tested, just a sampling. If you're curious, the matrix was something like 8 x 8 for various lifters and processes done to each, from coatings, to plating (we even tried hard chroming and nikasil on wear surfaces!), and various different surface profiles (radius). I did the research and leg work processing various lifters, Aircooled Technology built the spintron and did the thousands of hours of run time.

All tests were run with Castrol GTX 20w50 API SG.

Our solution, until the company that was making them went belly up, were the aforementioned 'ceramic' lifters:

http://www.lnengineering.com/lifters2.htm
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Last edited by cnavarro; 12-13-2007 at 04:36 PM..
Old 12-13-2007, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livi View Post
Thanks, Charles.

Please excuse my being blunt, but it is a topic that is more 'foggy' to amateurs than most issues - almost religious. In the end we all have to form our own opinion and decide for our selves. It is wise then, to have listened to as many insightful people as possible. Even if that leaves one more confused, the confusion is at least on a slightly higher level.

Markus,..your comment about this subject approaching religious fervor is accurate,...

It rivals discussions about politics and religion for sure, however not everyone has a depth of experience and knowledge on this particular subject to make an accurate call about engines and lubrication effects.

Most people working this business begin with mentors that help accelerate a 50+ year learning curve and they share the benefits of their experiences. This cumulative, long-term perspective shapes one's opinions based on looking at hundreds of engines, hopefully of the same type to spot any trends or anomolies.

No different from medical decisions, one should consult qualified & experienced
personnel whose breadth of knowledge encompasses the specific vehicles in question. In this fashion, one receives the most accurate and objective input, free of ANY potential conflict of interests.
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Old 12-13-2007, 04:16 PM
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unless they own a radiology clinic....
Old 12-13-2007, 04:28 PM
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Jolly good show! Thanks a lot guys!
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Old 12-13-2007, 04:32 PM
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hey folks,
love this thread.
I am also breathing a sigh of relief that mahle filters are on the good list
if not at the top
got the brad penn oil this morning and it was 41 dollars a case for 20w50 racing
not sure if that is a good or bad deal
any way, couldn't get my hands on a mobil 1 or k&n gold
so I went with a napa gold
unfortunately my oil change got snowed out
maybe tomorrow will be better
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1975 911s, 3.2l and 915 transmission front oil cooler RUF replica bumper ducktail and SC rear flares SW chip ssi's m&k 2 in 1 out sc front calipers PF 97 pads fuchs 16 x 7 and 8 225/ 245 toyo ra-1s 22/29 torsion bars 25mm Charlie Bars Neatrix bushings lowered and corner balanced DAS bolt in roll bar kirkey seat 5 point harnesses.
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Old 12-13-2007, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livi View Post
Charles,

I have been following some of yours and Doug Hillary´s discussion on this topic on Rennlist. You seem to have somewhat different views on the subject. Both of you sound eminently knowledgeable, but that only adds to the confusion for us ignorants (me).

Care to comment on that reflection here on Pelican ?

Thanks!
I went to Rennlist to read up on those comments and was a bit surprised...
Why would Doug choose the '84 MY change for recommending the SM oils being good enough for the engines that came after that? Not that much has changed in the valve train to pick that point in time if you ask me. I have an '82 SC with the carrera tensioner upgrade so that would make my engine close to a '84 and on model but I still chose Swepco 306 15 W40.
If he picked the 993 model year I could follow his reasoning a bit better with the change in valve lash control but even then the rockers and cams are not that much different.

I'd say all air-cooled 911 engines are close enough in design to benefit from the same good lubricants and it is your choice if you trust the changes that have been made to these essential fluids by the big company's

I trust Charles and Steve's (and Jake at Air-cooled Technology) judgment as they deal with more engines than I ever will own, maintain or build in my life.

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Old 12-14-2007, 03:35 AM
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