Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[the]

I just got my 2 cases of Brad Penn yesterday, one of them will be going into the Carrera soon.

I did get a chuckle out of the warning printed on the box:

"WARNING: CONTENTS MAY BE HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED"

May?? That's pretty optimistic. I can't imagine that drinking motor oil is going to be good for ya.

[cnavarro]

My father in law chuckled this afternoon at that same tagline when he was helping me unload Brad Penn :-)

Update on the ZDDPlus: they wrote me back that their supplement now has detergents and a TBN of 20, which should have enough detergents to balance the added Zn and P, but still caution is advised and one would still be best just to use a proper oil IMHO. FYI, EOS was about 1:1 Zn/P and Ca/Na (detergents), which the only other product similar in ratio of concentration is Red STP.

[Oh Haha]

Anyone know of a Brad Penn dealer in Michigan? I contacted BP but haven't heard back.

[JBO]

Charles - is the blue bottle STP no good - it is avail everywhere but I have yet to find the red bottle anywhere, other than online.

[cnavarro]

The blue bottle is no good IMHO. It's more thickeners than ZDDP anyways.

It is so odd that I can get the red STP here locally in mass quanitities at Farm and Fleet. They must target certain areas...

[carnutzzz]

What's wrong with Mobil 1 15/50? Their sheet seems to indicate it's ok?

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

[hcoles]

carnutzzz - you may get jumped on for not reading but I think it is because low on zinc and phos. and a number of other reasons..

[cnavarro]

Jerry Woods and all the other Mobil users who have had failures and have since switched to Swepco or Brad Penn would beg to differ. That sheet also does not disclose the Zn content, just P.

[Johnb911]

For all those in CANADA looking for BRAD PENN and can't find it.

Look Here:

Brad Penn Oil Just May Be Available In Canada

[Jeff Alton]

John, sent you a PM

[Don Plumley]

Originally Posted by Don Plumley

I've seldom read so much and understood so little. Thanks to all the contributors.

My 993 (hydro lifters) sees 6-12 track days a year. At the beginning of this season I changed the oil and filters with Mobil 1 15W-50 from Costco. It says "New, Fully Synthetic" on the front, on the back it says "API SM, SL/CF". Am I to assume this does not have the sufficient goodies my engine wants? If yes, should I buy a bottle or so of the engine break in stuff you recommend?

When I change the oil next year, is the consensus to switch to non fully synthetic Brad Penn or one of the Royal Purple's? Or should I hunt down the Valvoline racing stuff since I stomp on my engine so hard?

Thank you.

Any opinions? Please?

[htron435]

Don -
From my understanding (I've read every single friggin' post , I think either the BP or the Royal Purple would be okay. The M1 would definitely need an additive (EOS if you can find it). As for BP vs. Royal Purple, I think it comes down to what's available and what you want to pay for it. It seems that alot of the engine builders that have posted are recommending the BP and Swepco to their customers, but I don't think that is a strike against the Royal Purple. I hope that adds some clarification.

[carnutzzz]

Originally Posted by hcoles

carnutzzz - you may get jumped on for not reading but I think it is because low on zinc and phos. and a number of other reasons..

Thanks, I have read, and you can see fom the chart that it is not low on phos.

Charles just pointed out that it may very well be low on Zinc, while providing some anecdotal evidence to support that.

I was not aware that a company would lower Zinc though, and keep the phosphorous high. I assumed the additive ZDDP kept them in some sort of balance.

[cnavarro]

True, but why not just come right out and say on the pdf file Zn and P levels? What gets me is that how can an ACEA A3/B3 oil have an SM rating, since levels imposed in both standards are not compatible? (API has lower max limits below ACEA min limits!) I've become very leery of an oil company's claims as it seems they are more interested in packaging changes and new labels than ensuring performance in older engines - I personally would stick to using the MX4T (4T Racing) and V-Twin M1 motorcycle lubricants if and when possible, if using Mobil 1, and only if the engine doesn't have a cat and you keep an eye on spark plug & o2 sensor life. It was mentioned to me that one side effect of very high Zn and P is deposits on these items.

That aside, Mobil 1 0w40 is IMHO one of the poorest factory approved oils - it's a shame that the Truck and Diesel SL rated 5w40 isn't 'approved', as it is even more robust (and has a higher HTHS viscosity) than the 'approved' 5w50 M1 (available outside the US). There are plenty of 15w40 and 20w50 oils much better than Mobil 1 15w50 as well, so I see no reason to switch back. Redline, Royal Purple, Amsoil, Motul, Elf, Fuchs, and the list goes on and on, have good oils, in addition to the favorites of Brad Penn and Swepco. What it all boils down to is that a good oil more than likely isn't going to be easy to get locally any more and will have to be shipped in, but most of us can't get Porsche parts locally either and have those shipped, so what's the difference :-)

[carnutzzz]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

True, but why not just come right out and say on the pdf file Zn and P levels? What gets me is that how can an ACEA A3/B3 oil have an SM rating, since levels imposed in both standards are not compatible? (API has lower max limits below ACEA min limits!) I've become very leery of an oil company's claims as it seems they are more interested in packaging changes and new labels than ensuring performance in older engines - I personally would stick to using the MX4T (4T Racing) and V-Twin M1 motorcycle lubricants if and when possible, if using Mobil 1, and only if the engine doesn't have a cat and you keep an eye on spark plug & o2 sensor life. It was mentioned to me that one side effect of very high Zn and P is deposits on these items.

That aside, Mobil 1 0w40 is IMHO one of the poorest factory approved oils - it's a shame that the Truck and Diesel SL rated 5w40 isn't 'approved', as it is even more robust (and has a higher HTHS viscosity) than the 'approved' 5w50 M1 (available outside the US). There are plenty of 15w40 and 20w50 oils much better than Mobil 1 15w50 as well, so I see no reason to switch back. Redline, Royal Purple, Amsoil, Motul, Elf, Fuchs, and the list goes on and on, have good oils, in addition to the favorites of Brad Penn and Swepco. What it all boils down to is that a good oil more than likely isn't going to be easy to get locally any more and will have to be shipped in, but most of us can't get Porsche parts locally either and have those shipped, so what's the difference :-)

Agreed, and well said.

My Porsche is taken care of- I'm just going to buy Brad Penn and replace every 2k miles (one year).

I am still considering an appropriate course of action for my DD Jeep Cherokee (4.0 old style motor). I'd like drain intervals around 4k miles, and I understand for that, racing oils are out (requiring more frequent changes).

A couple thoughts:

-Even on newer cars, why would you not use the oils discussed here to ensure a higher level of lubrication? Plugs, O2 sensors, cats are all cheap if you're truely into the car for the long haul. I have yet to find fouling of any of these devices with older oils anyways.
-What does this mean for us when shopping for used cars? Not only do we need records of oil changes- but now we need to pay very close attention to the type of oil used after '05?

[the]

Originally Posted by carnutzzz

-What does this mean for us when shopping for used cars? Not only do we need records of oil changes- but now we need to pay very close attention to the type of oil used after '05?

I'm not the paranoid type, but I was at a wholesale auto auction recently. The cars are in the lot available for inspection, with keys in them so you can start them up.

I was looking mostly at late (2004 through 2006 or so) BMWs, they tend to have 30-60K miles on them. One thing I noticed, in starting them up cold, is that most of them had a pretty rough running engine for the first few minutes. Was weird. I wonder if that is lubrication related?

(One funny car I saw was a lemon law returned BMW, when they go through the auction, they have to disclose the lemon law return and the reason. This car, the customer complained that it kept running too hot. The dealer made several attempts to fix it, only to finally determine that the factory had FORGOTTEN to install the oil cooler on the engine! It was just plain missing).

[RWebb]

Was this one of the BMWs that are made in the US?

[cnavarro]

Here's a relavant bump. The UOA for the Brad Penn with 2400 highway miles on it came back excellent, as expected:

http://www.lnengineering.com/BPR2050_2400MI.pdf

The moly is left over of the two quarts of Valvoline that was still in the oil lines. Copper levels are significantly less. From what I have researched, copper levels are basically tied to the amount of moly used, as the inhibitors used to prevent leaching of copper because of the moly breaks down very fast and is not temperature stable.

For comparison, here's what the Valvoline Racing NSL synthetic looked like after 1500 highway miles:

http://www.lnengineering.com/vr1_nsl20w50uoa.pdf

The Brad Penn looks like it's a solid performer. Based on the TBN, I would expect a conservative drain interval at 5,000-6,000 mi with the Brad Penn if you go by the whole 50% rule of change when TBN is half of the starting amount.

I thought I would also clarify why the Brad Penn with a starting average TBN of 10 wouldn't go as long as Mobil 1 0w40, which has a similar TBN of 10. Well, it has to do with the detergents used. The Calcium Sulfonate detergent primarily used in most oils, including Mobil 1, is more temperature stable at the expense of creating more wear (it binds to the same receptors that the ZDDP is supposed to). Where the Brad Penn does use some Ca, it is about half of what most oils use because they also are using other more mild detergents that don't inhibit or clean the AW (anti-wear) film off the parts.

[donstevens]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

The Brad Penn looks like it's a solid performer. Based on the TBN, I would expect a conservative drain interval at 5,000-6,000 mi with the Brad Penn if you go by the whole 50% rule of change when TBN is half of the starting amount.

Based on your comments. I'd like to see what this report looks like after 5000 miles. Did you drain this oil or just sample it? Do you have plans to continue on with this oil? Try a 5000 mile sample?

I think that you need to 1) get that left over Valvoline out of there and 2) try a longer drain interval beofre you can draw any conclusions. As I mentioned earlier, 2400 highway miles is as easy as one can be on an engine and with that much moly left over form the Valvoline, it is enough to question the results. Heck, the Moly and/or left over Valvoline may have even brought the TBN down on this sample. If you drain and refill again with the BP, you very well might find similar low wear levels and better TBN retention on your next sample.

Finally, I'd also like to see how Amsoil 20W50 Hi Performance (not the V-twin oil, but the regular car oil) compares to the BP in your car. So much so, I'll even donate the oil when you are ready to try it. My theory is that wear will be similar but TBN retention after 5000 miles will be better.

Don

[cnavarro]

I plan on leaving the Brad Penn in there now (the same oil that has the 2400 mi on it), based on the TBN, probably until mid or late summer '08 I might have enough miles on it hopefully to get it to 5k before a year is up. I don't drive the car much, try only to put big chunks of highway miles on it, at least 200 mi in a weekend if we go out. I might have to go down to Atlanta in January and that might give me an excuse to put some more miles on it too.

Granted, I plan on probably putting in the Swepco 306 next time to do this same test, but it just takes so much time to actually put miles on and do them all on the same car, with the same kind of driving, etc. Ideally, it would be great if a few (the more the marrier) Pelicanites that have daily drivers could conduct their own 'field testing' with a selection of known oils from which eventually, we might be able to draw long term conclusions.

All I know, is from the short term tests I have done and synthetic spintron cam/lifter testing, the Brad Penn works great, but it is clear, it isn't a long drain interval oil. It's quite possible that there are other oils that will produce similar results with better TBN retention. But for most, 5k drain intervals are longer than what most of our cars see anyways and really, I still do believe that spring and fall oil changes should be the norm (which I will forego for sake of testing in my car to try to rack some miles on the Brad Penn).

I also forgot to mention that the 964 used zero oil in the 2400 mi. The VR-1 used about 3/4 a quart in the 1400 mi. Just thought I would mention that.