Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[SRT356/911]

I was a dedicated Mobil 1 user for the last 20 plus years. And then Exxon Mobil pulled their little trick via Zn and P.

That is such a betrayal that there is no way on this planet that I will put M-1 products into my cars ever again.

Think about the number of damaged engines. And now they have restored the Zn And P! Well, expletive deleted to E/M.

Especially now that we have become aware of Brad- Penn and Swepco.

[SWEPCO has requested that I delete their wholesale pricing from the website. -Wayne]

[911man1960]

I called the SWEPCO number that Steve posted and tried to buy three
gallons of 201 80w90 and 12 quarts of 306 engine oil and they referred me to Pelican Parts for small quantities. Apparently unless you are willing to buy $1000 at a time like Steve, you have to get it from someone else. Considering how good this stuff is I really don't mind the Pelican price for a gallon or two at a time. Buying cases just doesn't make sense for me.

[sig_a]

Steve356 says:

"They have Swepco 306 in 5w-30, 10-30, 15-40 and 20W-50. For $4.95 a qt!!! In a case of 24 qts.

Mobil cannot beat those prices. You may want to trust them, and that is fine. Not gonna happen with me."
-----
Costco recently sold me a six pack of Mobil 1 15w50 at $29.99. Not quite $4.95 per quart. But then again, I didn't have to buy a thousand dollars worth.

And I can't imagine an oil company that made $40,600,000,000 profit in 2007 will miss your business.

The fact is, Mobil 1 15w 50 is at least an equal to Swepco or Brad Penn.

[SRT356/911]

Swepco sells in terms of cases. If you want gear oil, it is 6 gallons in a case for $212 + tax. They do not split it up.
Oil comes in 24 qt cases. These are the smallest amounts that you can buy from Swepco direct. A case is $118.08 + tax.

I do not expect Exxon Mobil to miss my business. And Swepco does appreciate my business. The day after I placed the order, I got a call from Swepco management thanking me for the order and asking if there is anything that they can do.

Out of the $1000 order I am keeping 12 qts of 10-30 and 3 gallons of 201. The rest has been ordered for 6 other friends. This was set up so that at x point in the future there will be another order placed for a minimum of $500. No shipping cost.

M1 may or may not be equal to Swepco. That is not the point for me. It is a matter of trust. And [B]I[/B] no longer trust Exxon Mobil.

Yes, if you need or want smaller amounts, then the best place to purchase Swepco or whatever is Pelican Parts.

My oil purchases have totaled over $500 in the last 2 months. That is personal use, not for others. That is a lot of money to me and why I look for as much quality and savings as possible. To be upfront, much of the purchase went into 2 911 engine break ins and converting personal vehicles to Brad Penn and Swepco, plus back up.

[Richard C2S]

So, guys:

What is the verdict (as of today and until something else changes)?

I have an '81 911SC and a '98 993. I have been using Mobil 1 15W-50 in both cars. I don't at all object to going with the Brad Penn or Swepco if that is the only way to play it safe.

But, is it safe to use the presently available formulation of Mobil 1, in either the Porsche recommended 0W-40 or the 15-50 that I have been using for years, in either car?

I actually bought (two weeks ago) a few 5 quart jugs of Mobil 1 Hi-Mileage 10W-40 at Wal Mart. This stuff, which is supposedly "new", is NOT SM or CJ4 rated. I used 6 quarts when I changed the oil & filter in my A4q. I am wondering if I would be safe to use it in my 911s, even tho neither is a "high mileage" car.

I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

[tchanson]

Originally Posted by HarryD

I was looking at the Mobil 1 Web site tonight and I noticed that this table (http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf) shows the higher viscosity grades of Mobil 1 as have 1000+ ppm of Phosphorus (and I would assume Zinc as they come together as ZDDP).

The data shows:

15W-50, Boosted, higher viscosity, fully synthetic formula designed for
performance vehicles
Recommended applications: HT/HS applications & Racing and Flat tappet applications
SM
ACEA Approval: None
Phosphorus 1200 ppm.

Any thoughts?

My question as well. The chart from E-M is dated 12-18-07.

With 1200 ppm, is the apparently reformulated (again) M1 15w50 now back on the acceptable list?

Charles?






Tim

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by tchanson

My question as well. The chart from E-M is dated 12-18-07.

With 1200 ppm, is the apparently reformulated (again) M1 15w50 now back on the acceptable list?

Charles?

Tim

Please take careful note that they made no mention of Zinc content. Phosphorus without sufficient Zinc doesn't work very well.

[cnavarro]

No, I never did say or recommend the new SM rated 15w50 in either formulation (ep or not). Their own web site says it is a new formulation, not the original one. Why change a good thing when supposedly "re-introducing" it.

IMHO, the current M1 15w50 formulation shares nothing in common with the tried and true original formulas from a few years ago and unless Mobil did thorough testing to prove it's of equal or better performance compared to the old version, it's not a proven product. It's just a new oil from a well known brand filling the spot of a previously excellent oil.

The Swepco and Brad Penn formulations have been around for a LONG TIME and have not been changed and are proven.

If you insist on using Mobil 1, ditch the cat and go for the motorcycle versions. They are a good oil I would say are equivalent in protection to the Brad Penn and Swepco from our own testing (not just VOA results).

You don't have to use Brad Penn or Swepco. There are plenty of other good oils out there to choose from that have been discussed thoroughly (Royal Purple, Redline, Elf, Motul, etc). Swepco is the proven favorite of many Porsche shops and Brad Penn has been around since Kendall ceased being Kendall, but was just an unknown for so many years (and a well kept secret).

The Brad Penn is cheap protection. That's what I run, and I have lots of other oils around to choose from. I don't drive enough to justify Swepco for it's longer drain intervals and I'm not as concerned with every last HP the Swepco has been proven to deliver.

[Jeff Alton]

Charles,

Have you ever tried the BP trans oils?

Cheers

[cnavarro]

Nope, never had. I've been really happy with Swepco 201 for the 901/915s and Delvac 1 for the G50 and later.

I did speak to some old timers who were telling me that they had excellent results in the 60s and 70s with kendall gear lubes and I would imagine that Brad Penn's least expensive general use 80w90 is probably the same as the old kendall lube, but I've never looked into it.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

Please take careful note that they made no mention of Zinc content. Phosphorus without sufficient Zinc doesn't work very well.

Steve,

That was what lit up my radar. Seems they are trying to make it something it is not. As some others noted, not a way to get the trust of a savvy customer.

Originally Posted by cnavarro

No, I never did say or recommend the new SM rated 15w50 in either formulation (ep or not). Their own web site says it is a new formulation, not the original one. Why change a good thing when supposedly "re-introducing" it.

IMHO, the current M1 15w50 formulation shares nothing in common with the tried and true original formulas from a few years ago and unless Mobil did thorough testing to prove it's of equal or better performance compared to the old version, it's not a proven product. It's just a new oil from a well known brand filling the spot of a previously excellent oil.

Charles,

I agree, this does seem like disingenuous actions by the marketing folks.

I presume there are non-ZDDP additives that can provide the indicated level of Phosphorus without adding Zinc at the same time. Is this correct?

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by GMR911

Harry, if you look further on the web site you may notice their extensive Q & A section, many of the questions address the ZDDP issue, and flat tappets. Looks like to me they have boosted their levels of ZDDP to address the flat tappet issue, Jerry

Jerry,

I saw that. They said (http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Oils_FAQs.aspx):

"Why are you reintroducing Mobil 1 15W-50? Have there been any changes to the formulation, or is it identical to the previous product?

Mobil 1 15W-50 is being reintroduced based on popular demand. Mobil 1 15W-50 provides higher viscosity, designed to provide extra protection for performance vehicles and vehicles that operate in severe service, such as towing, hauling and racing. Additionally, Mobil 1 15W-50 contains higher levels of anti-wear (ZDDP or Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) that may be required for certain racing applications and camshaft designs. This is a new Mobil 1 15W-50 formulation and is not the same as the product that was marketed a few years ago. "

That is all well and good, but they then present incomplete tech data. Typically, one of the reasons for this is to hide a fact.

thanks Amazon

[sig_a]

This from "Bob Is The Oil Guy" Forum.

One other thing, Brad Penn reformulated their oil last year as well.
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Re: mobil 1 synthetic 15w 50 silver cap auto oil [Re: brian12]
Lost1



Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 124
Loc: NC
It's popular among air-cooled Harley riders as it offers a stout additive package. I started using it a few months ago in my '07 Electra Glide and plan to do a UOA on it after 5k miles.

Here's a VOA provided by CTC Analytical Services of Phoenix, AZ and reported in a recent issue of Full Throttle magazine:

Silicon: M1 15W-50: 9ppm
Boron: M1 15W-50: 228ppm
Sodium: M1 15W-50: 13ppm
Magnesium: M1 15W-50: 43ppm
Calcium: M1 15W-50: 2464ppm
Phosphorus: M1 15W-50: 1193ppm
Zinc: M1 15W-50: 1315ppm
Molybdenum: M1 15W-50: 90ppm

Exxon recommends silver cap 15W-50 for the engine, but not for wet clutches due to the molybdenum.
Top
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[dshepp806]

Originally Posted by sig_a

This from "Bob Is The Oil Guy" Forum.

One other thing, Brad Penn reformulated their oil last year as well.
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Re: mobil 1 synthetic 15w 50 silver cap auto oil [Re: brian12]
Lost1



Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 124
Loc: NC
It's popular among air-cooled Harley riders as it offers a stout additive package. I started using it a few months ago in my '07 Electra Glide and plan to do a UOA on it after 5k miles.

Here's a VOA provided by CTC Analytical Services of Phoenix, AZ and reported in a recent issue of Full Throttle magazine:

Silicon: M1 15W-50: 9ppm
Boron: M1 15W-50: 228ppm
Sodium: M1 15W-50: 13ppm
Magnesium: M1 15W-50: 43ppm
Calcium: M1 15W-50: 2464ppm
Phosphorus: M1 15W-50: 1193ppm
Zinc: M1 15W-50: 1315ppm
Molybdenum: M1 15W-50: 90ppm

Exxon recommends silver cap 15W-50 for the engine, but not for wet clutches due to the molybdenum.
Top
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What were the changes to the BP reformulation (Charles?)..

Best,

[cnavarro]

None that I was aware of, and I've been in close contact with Brad Penn for two years now. Yes, it's different than the old Kendall formula from the 70s and 80s, that I already know.

If that test result from the M1 15w50 is correct, knowing they can be off, it sure looks like they keep changing it. I do like the lower Ca content, it was much, much higher, but it still isn't the old stuff:

P (ppm) Zn (ppm) B (ppm) Mo (ppm) Ca (ppm) Mg (ppm) Na (ppm)
1343 1390 205 94 2568 33 0

You can see the old 15w50 had boron, but still had significantly more Zn and P. Now why can't they just change it back to the old formula that we know works? Also, as I have already stated, boron's performance is linked to the amount of Zn and P present (this is a published fact), so something as little as a reduction in the P or Zn, can have a drastic effect on the oil, even with the supplemental ashless anti-wear additives.

(the above test was one done by Staveley back in 2005, before the EP version came out and the 15w50 still had a red cap).

[Don Plumley]

Question: I did my annual change with whatever M1 was at Costco about one year ago. I've run four track days on that change, and will probably run two to six more days before the next change. Is there an additive package I should put into the oil?

[cnavarro]

Maybe top off with some Mobil 1 V-Twin for now.

I'll defer to Steve on this, but I think many who take their cars to track days need to change their oil more often :-)

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Maybe top off with some Mobil 1 V-Twin for now.

I'll defer to Steve on this, but I think many who take their cars to track days need to change their oil more often :-)

LOL,..I'd concur with Professor Navarro,...........

One needs to remember that track day usage involves a good deal more WOT operation than street driving and the oil becomes fuel contaminated faster than normal.

IMHO, oil is cheaper than engine rebuilds (and the consequences of bearing failures).

[dshepp806]

Originally Posted by sig_a

This from "Bob Is The Oil Guy" Forum.

One other thing, Brad Penn reformulated their oil last year as well.
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Re: mobil 1 synthetic 15w 50 silver cap auto oil [Re: brian12]
Lost1



Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 124
Loc: NC
It's popular among air-cooled Harley riders as it offers a stout additive package. I started using it a few months ago in my '07 Electra Glide and plan to do a UOA on it after 5k miles.

Here's a VOA provided by CTC Analytical Services of Phoenix, AZ and reported in a recent issue of Full Throttle magazine:

Silicon: M1 15W-50: 9ppm
Boron: M1 15W-50: 228ppm
Sodium: M1 15W-50: 13ppm
Magnesium: M1 15W-50: 43ppm
Calcium: M1 15W-50: 2464ppm
Phosphorus: M1 15W-50: 1193ppm
Zinc: M1 15W-50: 1315ppm
Molybdenum: M1 15W-50: 90ppm

Exxon recommends silver cap 15W-50 for the engine, but not for wet clutches due to the molybdenum.
Top
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What reformulation change are you referring to? (As to BP)..

Thanks!

[sig_a]