Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by rickdm

Charles in looking for a good 10W-30 oil for my '91 Miata, that is mostly street driven with some AX use, I started using the Brad Penn 10W-30. Any reason to think that this l would not be of the same quality as the 20W-50? I know this engine does not put the same loads on the cams as my 911, but I have to believe the BP additives and base stock couldn't hurt.

There's no reason to think that the Brad Penn isn't good for the Miata. It's also an SJ rated oil and has the levels of AW and detergent additives that lots of cars from the 90s and even early 00's were designed for.

In fact, I've had a few miata users call me asking about 10w30 Brad Penn Racing in their DD'erss and AX'ers and I've had nothing but positive things to say.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by jpahemi

Charles:
Since the list was taken down for the above mentioned reasons, can you recommend an oil for a higher mileage engine (911-3.2)? 'Possibly a dino & syn type oil?? Which high mileage oil presently available??

jp

I don't really think I have a recommendation for a specific "high-mileage" oil. It's pretty much marketing BS plus stop leak :-)

Overwhelmingly, the Brad Penn 20w50 has one of the highest HTHS viscosities and will greatly reduce blowby and oil consumption in a 911.

As I've said previously, my '91 c4 with 55k miles used to use 1 qt of M1 0w40 every 700-800 mi and now the last fill of 20w50 Brad Penn was about 1/2 qt in 4500 mi.

[jpahemi]

Is Brad Penn sold in NY??

[Darrell E]

Has anyone tested Spectro Golden4 20w50 full synthetic motorcycle oil. The reason I ask is that I just bought a 79 SC from a guy who is a real BMW motorcycle nut. I guess this oil is used quite a bit in that air cooled crowd and he asked the tech guys at Spectro about using it in his (now mine) SC. They indicated it was well suited for that application. Its API SL rated. I'm sure its pretty expensive compared to Brad Penn and Swepco but may be more readily available. If nobody's tested it, I'd be interested in doing so as I have a car with an oil tank full of it!

[rickdm]

There's no reason to think that the Brad Penn isn't good for the Miata. It's also an SJ rated oil and has the levels of AW and detergent additives that lots of cars from the 90s and even early 00's were designed for.

In fact, I've had a few miata users call me asking about 10w30 Brad Penn Racing in their DD'erss and AX'ers and I've had nothing but positive things to say

Thank you Charles. It is one more way to support Brad Penn so they can continue to produce these oils for our older cars.

[dshepp806]

Originally Posted by Luis de Prat

Read through this whole thread and haven't seen any mention of High-Temperature/High-Shear (HTHS) numbers for Brad Penn or the rest of the brands discussed.

From the Porsche Club Great Britain forum:

High-Temperature/High-Shear
by Simon

This test is a simulation of the shearing effects that would occur within an engine. In fact, it's actually designed to simulate motor oil viscosity in operating crankshaft bearings.

Under high stress conditions where shearing can occur, the VI Improvers (polymers) break down. As they do, the viscosity of the oil decreases. This is what the High Temperature/High Shear test checks for.

The HT/HS test is measured in Centipoise (cP) as the Cold Crank Simulator test is. However, in this case, because you're hoping for the least loss of viscosity with an increase in heat and stress, you want the cP value to remain high.

Each SAE multi-viscosity grade has a specific lower limit for the HT/HS cP value. If a multi-viscosity oil cannot achieve a cP value above that limit, it cannot be classified under that viscosity grade. For instance, according to the SAE specifications, an oil must achieve an HT/HS cP value of 3.7 or higher in order to be classified at the 15w40 viscosity grade.
The thinner the oil the lower the number.

Comparisons of HTHS numbers.

Here for comparison sake are a few numbers that we have compiled from data sheets and requests to the oil companies concerned. These are well known oils and considered to be "quality" synthetics so these comparisons are relevant.

Silkolene PRO S 5w-40
HTHS 4.07

Motul 300V 5w-40
HTHS 4.51

Silkolene PRO S 10w-50
HTHS 5.11

Motul 300V 10w-40
HTHS 4.19

Silkolene PRO R 15w-50
HTHS 5.23

Motul 300V 15w-50
HTHS 5.33

Mobil 1 Motorsport 15w-50
HTHS 5.11

Castrol RS 10w-60
HTHS 3.70

The HTHS numbers are great for Brad Penn,......this has been posted long ago....Charlie can vouch for the lab results, as can I. I just consider it an oil to be changed out a bit more frequently...don't think it has a boat load of detergents in it.

Best,

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Darrell E

Has anyone tested Spectro Golden4 20w50 full synthetic motorcycle oil. The reason I ask is that I just bought a 79 SC from a guy who is a real BMW motorcycle nut. I guess this oil is used quite a bit in that air cooled crowd and he asked the tech guys at Spectro about using it in his (now mine) SC. They indicated it was well suited for that application. Its API SL rated. I'm sure its pretty expensive compared to Brad Penn and Swepco but may be more readily available. If nobody's tested it, I'd be interested in doing so as I have a car with an oil tank full of it!

That is one of the few motorcycle oils I wouldn't run, although I'm sure it's better than using an SM oil at least. Some of the BMW motorcycles have catalytic converters, so the required/recommended oils aren't as 'potent' as Mobil 1 V-twin, Royal Purple Max Cycle, etc.

[Thrlls]

Originally Posted by jpahemi

Is Brad Penn sold in NY??

If not, you can order it from Charles on his website...that's what I did, as no one sells it here in the middle of the Pacific.

[Darrell E]

Thanks Charles. I'll change out to Brad Penn shortly.

[teenerted1]

chris have you heard of this stuff from MOSS MOTORS?

wondering if it is any good...good enough for MG's good enough for Porsche?


Collector's Choice Engine Oil with ZDDP
Collector's Choice engine oil is a must for your classic engine. Contains "pre-ban" ZDDP levels to help prevent premature camshaft lobe wear, additives to help prevent seals from becoming hard and leaking from infrequent use, and antioxidants to combat the effects of humidity changes during storage that can lead to moisture and even rust in an engine. We offer oil by the quart but if you buy it by the case it comes in a plastic lined pre-sealed box.

Not to be used in cars with catalytic converters.

Available individually or by the case

Detailed FAQ and Technical Information
available on our site

ZDDPlus Engine Oil Additive

Detailed FAQ and Technical Information
available on our site After 70+ years of trouble-free, metal-metal engine protection, ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate = Zinc and Phosphorus) is being removed from domestic motor oil by order of the E.P.A., as it degrades catalytic converters. If your engine was designed prior to the 1990s, your non-roller lifters require ZDDP in your motor oil to avoid premature deterioration. Don’t let your lifters run metal-to-metal. Add the 4 fluid ounce contents of this ZddPlus bottle at every 4 to 5 quart oil change.

Not for use in cars with catalytic converters.

Available individually or by the case

http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=65910&SortOrder=1&utm_source=British124&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Emailer

http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=65940&SortOrder=1&utm_source=British124&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Emailer

[WI wide body]

For what is may be worth, here is what a PCA tech guy said:

The list we were talking about was the current Porsche-Approved oil list, which covers cars from 84 onward. All the oils on the list are synthetics, as Porsche requires them to be non-temperature dependent. For this application, we use Shell Helix Ultra 5w40, which is an SL oil. It is on the approved list, is Ferrari factory fill, and was developed for their F1 engines. We have some evidence that it works better than Mobil1. For the non–synthetic, we use Shell Rotella T, which is an CJ-SM oil. Rotella T was Porsche factory fill until they switched to synthetic. I have questioned the Shell distributor, and Shell has issued a press release saying they have done other chemical changes to make up for the lack of ZDDP, and I really have no reason to doubt them. My understanding is the new oils are thoroughly tested for compatibility to earlier versions. Since Rotella is their main fleet diesel oil, I can’t imagine they would expose themselves to the liability of ruining all those truck engines. If you choose to go a different way, Swepco 306 is a great oil, as is Brad Penn which is the original formula Kendall GT1. There is also good evidence for using Mobil1 V-twin, which was developed for motorcycles (air cooled), and is an SL oil. There is a lot of controversy in this area, and I don’t think we know everything yet, but these choices should get you by.

[SRT356/911]

I just stopped in at Bayside Oil Co here in Santa Cruz. I spoke with Kim, who is the person that sets up accounts and does the ordering.

Bayside Oil is a distributor of Brad-Penn oil already. And they sell a lot of it at a good price.

To get price breaks on the Swepco oils and gear oil Kim needs to order a minimum of $500 worth as a start. Anything less than $500 and there are not price breaks.

KIM SAID SHE WILL SET UP A DISTRIBUTORSHIP WITH SWEPCO IF THERE IS INTEREST FOR SWEPCO PRODUCTS.

If you are interested in getting a deal on Swepco motor oil and Swepco gear oil local to the San Francisco South Bay, please call Kim and tell her that you interested in Swepco motor oil or the Swepco Gear oil.

Bayside Oil , 219Encinal St, Santa Cruz, Ca. 95060. 831-427-3773. Ask for Kim.

Bayside does delivers to shops in the South Bay Area.

[dan88911]

Thanks Steve, I called Kim today and expressed my interest in purchasing some Swepco.

[hcoles]

Don's AutoWerks (Porsche fixit place in Campbell CA) sells Swepco... and I think the price is pretty good. I bought BP from Bayside. I like the place... sort of old fashion.

[GMR911]

Hi, anyone using the Valvoline Vr-1 racing oil that is sold at retail outlets, how does this oil compare? Looks like it would be a decent oil for Porsche cars? Where can one buy Brad Penn oil in upstate NY. What would be a recommended oil change interval for the Brad Penn oil, Thanks Jerry

[dmwallace]

GMR911,

Mr. Navarro sells Brad Penn at his web site http://www.LNengineering.com. You can also contact Brad Penn for the nearest local distributor to you at http://www.bradpennracing.com/contact.asp

Regards,
David

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by GMR911

Hi, anyone using the Valvoline Vr-1 racing oil that is sold at retail outlets, how does this oil compare? Looks like it would be a decent oil for Porsche cars? Where can one buy Brad Penn oil in upstate NY. What would be a recommended oil change interval for the Brad Penn oil, Thanks Jerry

Jerry,

Charles looked at this product (see Post #290 of this thread). He said it was reformulated and is not what it used to be.

The most conserative advice is to avoid any oil that is labelled SM.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by WI wide body

For what is may be worth, here is what a PCA tech guy said:

The list we were talking about was the current Porsche-Approved oil list, which covers cars from 84 onward. All the oils on the list are synthetics, as Porsche requires them to be non-temperature dependent. For this application, we use Shell Helix Ultra 5w40, which is an SL oil. It is on the approved list, is Ferrari factory fill, and was developed for their F1 engines. We have some evidence that it works better than Mobil1.

The Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 was reformulated to an SM oil late last year. Only reason I know that is that one of my friends had an F430 and was concerned when he saw the label.

For the non–synthetic, we use Shell Rotella T, which is an CJ-SM oil. Rotella T was Porsche factory fill until they switched to synthetic. I have questioned the Shell distributor, and Shell has issued a press release saying they have done other chemical changes to make up for the lack of ZDDP, and I really have no reason to doubt them. My understanding is the new oils are thoroughly tested for compatibility to earlier versions.

I've read through the API specifications and test sequences, and with the API SM and CJ-4 standards they do not test for backwards compatibility - in fact many of the tests with older engines were eliminated in favor of newer tests reflecting the most modern changes to these engines. They are so bold to state outright in the SAE paper outlining the SM standard that there is no reason to test newer oils in older engines because they are no longer made or used by vehicle manufacturers. There is also documentation in the SAE that the boronated AW additive does not perform as well as the Zn and P and it's performance is actually directly proportional to the level of Zn and P (the more, the better it performs). Swepco has four times the level of boron than the new Rotella T, and Swepco still maintains their higher levels of Zn and P. Swepco did the right thing and for the newer engines, formulated a different CJ-4 oil rather than try to compromise and make one for both specifications. Brad Penn did the same thing with their diesel oils, actually offereing a CF, CG, CI, and CJ oil, and they are the OE supplier of oil to Ford/New Holland for their diesel engines. I do not doubt the performance of a CJ-4 oil in an '07 and later engine and same with an SM rated oil in a new engine, but not with our older engines. The lack of evidence showing and proving backwards compatibility is just not there.

Since Rotella is their main fleet diesel oil, I can’t imagine they would expose themselves to the liability of ruining all those truck engines.

Fleet Equipment, in one such article "Focusing on Oil," stated that CJ-4 oils should only be used in 2007 and later diesel engines and that earlier diesel or mixed fleet engines should remain on CI-4 oils.

The big rig shop next door to me does the same thing and in fact, doesn't even carry any CJ-4 oil. The liability isn't on the shop or the manager, they are just going by what they are told. There are plenty of shops that use Mobil 1 0w40 in everything aircooled because that is what they are told too.

Mobil1 V-twin, which was developed for motorcycles (air cooled), and is an SL oil

The Mobil 1 m/c oils are SF/SG rated, and with the levels of Zn and P in them, probably should be relegated to cars without catalytic converters, but otherwise, are excellent oils as stated.

[HarryD]

I was looking at the Mobil 1 Web site tonight and I noticed that this table (http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf) shows the higher viscosity grades of Mobil 1 as have 1000+ ppm of Phosphorus (and I would assume Zinc as they come together as ZDDP).

The data shows:

0W-40, Fully synthetic formulation designed to meet the requirements of many European vehicles
recommended Applications: Porsche & Many European vehicles & HT/TS applications & Viper approved
SM
ACEA Approval: A3/B3-04,A3/B4-04
Ford Service Fill Approved
Chrysler Service Fill Approved: Dodge Viper approved
MB Approval 229.3/229.5
BMW Approval: Longlife 01
VW Approval: 502.00/503.01/505.00
Phosphorus: 1000 ppm

5W-50, Higher viscosity fully synthetic formula designed for performance vehicles
Recommended applications: Porsche & HT/HS applications
SM
ACEA Approval: A3/B3-04,A3/B4-04
MB Approval 229.1/229.3
VW Approval 505.00
Phosphorus 1000 ppm

15W-50, Boosted, higher viscosity, fully synthetic formula designed for
performance vehicles
Recommended applications: HT/HS applications & Racing and Flat tappet applications
SM
ACEA Approval: None
Phosphorus 1200 ppm.

Any thoughts?

[GMR911]

Harry, if you look further on the web site you may notice their extensive Q & A section, many of the questions address the ZDDP issue, and flat tappets. Looks like to me they have boosted their levels of ZDDP to address the flat tappet issue, Jerry